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	<title>Comments on: If the resurrection didn&#8217;t happen</title>
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	<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675</link>
	<description>Mormonism, Evangelical Christianity &#38; More</description>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675&#038;cpage=1#comment-2308</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675#comment-2308</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Mike&lt;/b&gt;,

That&#039;s not the only reason to take a dim view of genetics with respect to the Book of Mormon. 

Quite simply, the control experiments DON&#039;T WORK (not to mention identifying a convincing control experiment is difficult in the first place). If any scientist tried to make claims about their results when the control experiments weren&#039;t even working, they&#039;d get laughed off by any journal review committee. 

Yet somehow a different standard is applied to DNA and the Book of Mormon....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Mike</b>,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not the only reason to take a dim view of genetics with respect to the Book of Mormon. </p>
<p>Quite simply, the control experiments DON&#8217;T WORK (not to mention identifying a convincing control experiment is difficult in the first place). If any scientist tried to make claims about their results when the control experiments weren&#8217;t even working, they&#8217;d get laughed off by any journal review committee. </p>
<p>Yet somehow a different standard is applied to DNA and the Book of Mormon&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike H.</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675&#038;cpage=1#comment-2292</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675#comment-2292</guid>
		<description>Going at it from how Dan presented it elsewhere, I do have to point out that the lack of body that is recorded in the scriptures is there for a reason. Now, I won&#039;t pretend to say I know how resurrection works. I don&#039;t know how much of the original body, if any of it, are needed.

Now, disproving Mormonism or Christianity would take a LOT of doing for me. I&#039;m not sure what I&#039;d become in either case. As it was, the prophecies of the Old Testament were obscure at times about Jesus Christ.

Tom is right, there has been numerous times where something scientific was believed to be accurate, then disproved with further research. That&#039;s one of the reasons I take a dim view of those who say that genetics disproves the Book of Mormon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going at it from how Dan presented it elsewhere, I do have to point out that the lack of body that is recorded in the scriptures is there for a reason. Now, I won&#8217;t pretend to say I know how resurrection works. I don&#8217;t know how much of the original body, if any of it, are needed.</p>
<p>Now, disproving Mormonism or Christianity would take a LOT of doing for me. I&#8217;m not sure what I&#8217;d become in either case. As it was, the prophecies of the Old Testament were obscure at times about Jesus Christ.</p>
<p>Tom is right, there has been numerous times where something scientific was believed to be accurate, then disproved with further research. That&#8217;s one of the reasons I take a dim view of those who say that genetics disproves the Book of Mormon.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675&#038;cpage=1#comment-2290</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 02:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675#comment-2290</guid>
		<description>jack,

my comment over at Mormon Matters on this subject was what I&#039;ll say here too. The question there was phrased slightly differently. It didn&#039;t ask what if the resurrection didn&#039;t happen, but rather, what if Christ&#039;s bones were found. It&#039;s a fundamental difference, because one discounts the resurrection while the other leaves open the possibility of resurrection albeit in a different body than the one Christ inhabited whilst on earth. 

Much, if not all, of what we believe of the world we see is crafted, molded by our conceptions and preconceptions. For instance because we haven&#039;t been able to find life on any other planet, for generations on end, even the smartest people believed as fact that the Earth was the center of the Universe. After all, God created us, we are his children, therefore we are a priority over all else, the thinking goes. When something becomes an established belief, it becomes hardened perceptively as factual truth, and those who speak differently are considered heretics, until overwhelming evidence proves the heretic correct, such as Galileo.

The established belief, hardened perceptively as factual truth, is that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and resurrected. The funny thing is that Christians believe this even though they don&#039;t know a single thing about the details. How exactly did life come back into Jesus&#039; body? Yet, each and every single Christian believes some mechanism facilitated the reentry of Jesus&#039; soul into his dead body. The problem when you don&#039;t know the details is that when details start coming forth, each individual, and each group tends to get defensive, as if the discovery of a detail is a threat to their established belief. And here is the fork in the road. Either the details will show that the established belief is fatally wrong, or it will show a more complex view of what is already believed. 

I believe that Jesus resurrected. The details? No clue. And I&#039;m not even gonna bother speculating. I leave it open to whatever shows up as the real mechanism for that event happening. Did he leave his earthly body behind? Maybe. Did it somehow get life back in it? Sure, maybe. Am I gonna be bothered if it eventually gets proven that Jesus did not resurrect? Nah. His teachings are good enough for me, and his teachings have made me a better man than what I would have been without.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jack,</p>
<p>my comment over at Mormon Matters on this subject was what I&#8217;ll say here too. The question there was phrased slightly differently. It didn&#8217;t ask what if the resurrection didn&#8217;t happen, but rather, what if Christ&#8217;s bones were found. It&#8217;s a fundamental difference, because one discounts the resurrection while the other leaves open the possibility of resurrection albeit in a different body than the one Christ inhabited whilst on earth. </p>
<p>Much, if not all, of what we believe of the world we see is crafted, molded by our conceptions and preconceptions. For instance because we haven&#8217;t been able to find life on any other planet, for generations on end, even the smartest people believed as fact that the Earth was the center of the Universe. After all, God created us, we are his children, therefore we are a priority over all else, the thinking goes. When something becomes an established belief, it becomes hardened perceptively as factual truth, and those who speak differently are considered heretics, until overwhelming evidence proves the heretic correct, such as Galileo.</p>
<p>The established belief, hardened perceptively as factual truth, is that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and resurrected. The funny thing is that Christians believe this even though they don&#8217;t know a single thing about the details. How exactly did life come back into Jesus&#8217; body? Yet, each and every single Christian believes some mechanism facilitated the reentry of Jesus&#8217; soul into his dead body. The problem when you don&#8217;t know the details is that when details start coming forth, each individual, and each group tends to get defensive, as if the discovery of a detail is a threat to their established belief. And here is the fork in the road. Either the details will show that the established belief is fatally wrong, or it will show a more complex view of what is already believed. </p>
<p>I believe that Jesus resurrected. The details? No clue. And I&#8217;m not even gonna bother speculating. I leave it open to whatever shows up as the real mechanism for that event happening. Did he leave his earthly body behind? Maybe. Did it somehow get life back in it? Sure, maybe. Am I gonna be bothered if it eventually gets proven that Jesus did not resurrect? Nah. His teachings are good enough for me, and his teachings have made me a better man than what I would have been without.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675&#038;cpage=1#comment-2286</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675#comment-2286</guid>
		<description>Psalms 51:11; Isaiah 63:10; Nehemiah 9:20. Maybe there is a Holy Spirit even if one relies only on the OT? Hm. Hard to say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Psalms 51:11; Isaiah 63:10; Nehemiah 9:20. Maybe there is a Holy Spirit even if one relies only on the OT? Hm. Hard to say.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675&#038;cpage=1#comment-2285</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 18:47:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675#comment-2285</guid>
		<description>If science &quot;proved&quot; the resurrection didn&#039;t happen - I&#039;d probably take a &quot;Pascal&#039;s wager&quot; approach and assume that somehow science got it wrong. As a scientist, I&#039;m too keenly aware of instances where the entire scientific community believed something, only to find out later they were wrong. (I suppose the Holy Spirit could tell me that science was right, but if there were really no divine Jesus, then is there a Holy Spirit? I mean, the OT doesn&#039;t talk about the Spirit, as far as I can recall)

If somehow it were indisputable, to the point that Christianity was a total farce, I&#039;d totally go with Judaism, because I would still be bound by my belief in the truth of the Old Testament. Not sure which branch of Judaism I&#039;d choose - none of them seem to be &quot;true&quot; Judaism to me, but I&#039;m an amateur when it comes to Judaism. 

Of course this all reveals my LDS bias, i.e. &quot;God must have one true Church.&quot; :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If science &#8220;proved&#8221; the resurrection didn&#8217;t happen &#8211; I&#8217;d probably take a &#8220;Pascal&#8217;s wager&#8221; approach and assume that somehow science got it wrong. As a scientist, I&#8217;m too keenly aware of instances where the entire scientific community believed something, only to find out later they were wrong. (I suppose the Holy Spirit could tell me that science was right, but if there were really no divine Jesus, then is there a Holy Spirit? I mean, the OT doesn&#8217;t talk about the Spirit, as far as I can recall)</p>
<p>If somehow it were indisputable, to the point that Christianity was a total farce, I&#8217;d totally go with Judaism, because I would still be bound by my belief in the truth of the Old Testament. Not sure which branch of Judaism I&#8217;d choose &#8211; none of them seem to be &#8220;true&#8221; Judaism to me, but I&#8217;m an amateur when it comes to Judaism. </p>
<p>Of course this all reveals my LDS bias, i.e. &#8220;God must have one true Church.&#8221; <img src='http://www.clobberblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Andrew S</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675&#038;cpage=1#comment-2275</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675#comment-2275</guid>
		<description>well, then, your father is in good company, if many of the Founding Fathers are good company.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well, then, your father is in good company, if many of the Founding Fathers are good company.</p>
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		<title>By: Bridget Jack Meyers</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675&#038;cpage=1#comment-2274</link>
		<dc:creator>Bridget Jack Meyers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 07:43:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675#comment-2274</guid>
		<description>Katie, your answer makes me happy. 

&lt;em&gt;God becomes less and less ambitious…until you get some kind of deist clockmaker who doesn’t deal with ourt affairs anymore.&lt;/em&gt;

Actually, I know some Christians who essentially believe this, my father included.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Katie, your answer makes me happy. </p>
<p><em>God becomes less and less ambitious…until you get some kind of deist clockmaker who doesn’t deal with ourt affairs anymore.</em></p>
<p>Actually, I know some Christians who essentially believe this, my father included.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew S</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675&#038;cpage=1#comment-2272</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 05:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675#comment-2272</guid>
		<description>Oh Jack...don&#039;t you already know that UUism is religion for atheists in denial?

I find it interesting that there is a kind of hierarchy of religious credibility. so, I hear some Mormons say, if Mormonism wasn&#039;t true, then perhaps there was no apostasy and catholicism is correct. Or if not, then Judaism. Or...or...or...

I imagine at some point, the classifications of God becomes less and less ambitious...until you get some kind of deist clockmaker who doesn&#039;t deal with ourt affairs anymore. Believers will believe, I suppose...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh Jack&#8230;don&#8217;t you already know that UUism is religion for atheists in denial?</p>
<p>I find it interesting that there is a kind of hierarchy of religious credibility. so, I hear some Mormons say, if Mormonism wasn&#8217;t true, then perhaps there was no apostasy and catholicism is correct. Or if not, then Judaism. Or&#8230;or&#8230;or&#8230;</p>
<p>I imagine at some point, the classifications of God becomes less and less ambitious&#8230;until you get some kind of deist clockmaker who doesn&#8217;t deal with ourt affairs anymore. Believers will believe, I suppose&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Katie L.</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675&#038;cpage=1#comment-2270</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 04:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=2675#comment-2270</guid>
		<description>For this thought exercise...

&lt;b&gt;If we&#039;re saying that JUST Mormonism gets disproven,&lt;/b&gt; (meaning not Christianity as a whole), I&#039;d stick around Christianity for sure.  Something that is more egalitarian from a gender perspective, something that has Rock Out with Jesus sessions, and something that teaches grace.

&lt;b&gt;If we&#039;re saying Jesus&#039; resurrection gets disproven&lt;/b&gt;...I&#039;d &lt;i&gt;still&lt;/i&gt; stick around Christianity and opt for a denomination with egalitarian gender roles, Rock Out with Jesus sessions, and an emphasis on grace.  ;)  In this instance, I would abandon a literal interpretation of scripture and instead opt for some sort of New Age mumbo jumbo that says all spiritual paths lead to God (whoever God is)--and I&#039;d still choose to call him/her/it Jesus.  I just can&#039;t think of a better God to worship than Jesus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For this thought exercise&#8230;</p>
<p><b>If we&#8217;re saying that JUST Mormonism gets disproven,</b> (meaning not Christianity as a whole), I&#8217;d stick around Christianity for sure.  Something that is more egalitarian from a gender perspective, something that has Rock Out with Jesus sessions, and something that teaches grace.</p>
<p><b>If we&#8217;re saying Jesus&#8217; resurrection gets disproven</b>&#8230;I&#8217;d <i>still</i> stick around Christianity and opt for a denomination with egalitarian gender roles, Rock Out with Jesus sessions, and an emphasis on grace.  <img src='http://www.clobberblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />   In this instance, I would abandon a literal interpretation of scripture and instead opt for some sort of New Age mumbo jumbo that says all spiritual paths lead to God (whoever God is)&#8211;and I&#8217;d still choose to call him/her/it Jesus.  I just can&#8217;t think of a better God to worship than Jesus.</p>
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