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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Down syndrome kids are a burden to society and it&#8217;s okay to abort them&#8221;</title>
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	<description>Mormonism, Evangelical Christianity &#38; More</description>
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		<title>By: Kim McBride</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=648&#038;cpage=1#comment-245</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim McBride</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 04:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clobbergirl.wordpress.com/?p=648#comment-245</guid>
		<description>I have a 2  year old child with Down Syndrome.  He is a beautiful, energetic, smart little boy.  He is my youngest of 4.  I was 34 when I had him. I did the testing and found out he had DS during my 4th month of pregnancy.  I decided to confirm DS with an amnio, not with the intentions to abort, but because I learned a little less than half of babies with DS are born with heart defects.  I was told I would need to deliver in a different hospital if this was confirmed.  When his DS was confirmed, I asked my doctor what she would do.  I was and still am amazed at her answer, &quot;I would not go through with the pregnancy, because I couldn&#039;t do that to my other children&quot;.  This made no sense to me, a doctor, someone I trusted, giving me advice to abort my baby.  Who does she think she is, how many other women did she give this advice to.  Women who are distraught and think there is no hope think this is their only option.  I have found out this is usually the norm, that is what doctors tell their patients.  It is so wrong.  Women need to make an informed decision.  There is so much these women don&#039;t know.  They have old ideas, and other ignorant people to talk to.  My own mother said &quot;You&#039;re not going to keep it are you&quot; ( we haven&#039;t spoke in 2 years).

 So 90% of women do choose to abort, I bet most of them have never met a child or adult with DS.  They were not given any info on DS, and made their decisions out of fear.  I agree with [BJM] before you get pregnant make sure you will be able to accept a child with special needs. They are     amazing people.  My son was just like any other baby, now he is just like any other toddler.  He brings us joy and laughter every day.  His siblings adore him.

My husband and I look forward to the future with our son.  He has taught us so much.   Selfishly, I hope he always will want to stay with us.  If he decides to live elsewhere we will support him anyway we can.  Yes Provenso people with DS are capable of working and living on their own.  It saddens me thinking about Provenso&#039;s comments, and angers me at the same time.  I hope you learn more about DS and it touches your life in some way, then you will know what a blessing, not burden I have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a 2  year old child with Down Syndrome.  He is a beautiful, energetic, smart little boy.  He is my youngest of 4.  I was 34 when I had him. I did the testing and found out he had DS during my 4th month of pregnancy.  I decided to confirm DS with an amnio, not with the intentions to abort, but because I learned a little less than half of babies with DS are born with heart defects.  I was told I would need to deliver in a different hospital if this was confirmed.  When his DS was confirmed, I asked my doctor what she would do.  I was and still am amazed at her answer, &#8220;I would not go through with the pregnancy, because I couldn&#8217;t do that to my other children&#8221;.  This made no sense to me, a doctor, someone I trusted, giving me advice to abort my baby.  Who does she think she is, how many other women did she give this advice to.  Women who are distraught and think there is no hope think this is their only option.  I have found out this is usually the norm, that is what doctors tell their patients.  It is so wrong.  Women need to make an informed decision.  There is so much these women don&#8217;t know.  They have old ideas, and other ignorant people to talk to.  My own mother said &#8220;You&#8217;re not going to keep it are you&#8221; ( we haven&#8217;t spoke in 2 years).</p>
<p> So 90% of women do choose to abort, I bet most of them have never met a child or adult with DS.  They were not given any info on DS, and made their decisions out of fear.  I agree with [BJM] before you get pregnant make sure you will be able to accept a child with special needs. They are     amazing people.  My son was just like any other baby, now he is just like any other toddler.  He brings us joy and laughter every day.  His siblings adore him.</p>
<p>My husband and I look forward to the future with our son.  He has taught us so much.   Selfishly, I hope he always will want to stay with us.  If he decides to live elsewhere we will support him anyway we can.  Yes Provenso people with DS are capable of working and living on their own.  It saddens me thinking about Provenso&#8217;s comments, and angers me at the same time.  I hope you learn more about DS and it touches your life in some way, then you will know what a blessing, not burden I have.</p>
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		<title>By: Sommers</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=648&#038;cpage=1#comment-244</link>
		<dc:creator>Sommers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 03:21:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clobbergirl.wordpress.com/?p=648#comment-244</guid>
		<description>A bit after the fact, but I think I have some personal experience to weigh in on this one. I don&#039;t think that this guy is saying, &quot;these women don&#039;t want to have the babies because they are selfish and it would take away from their happiness&quot;. My younger brother is seriously mentally ill (he&#039;s 22), and my mother is basically his caretaker. He is constantly in the hospital, and tried to kill himself a few months back, which resulted in him giving himself a heart attack due to an OD. After he got out of the hospital, he had more problems, and went back to the hospital again. All the while, my mother is trying to take care of him and give him everything he needs.

My mom is AWESOME. However, she HAS told me before that had she of known about this before he was born, she might have wished she had never had him. Which I know to many people much sound horrible, but it&#039;s not her saying, &quot;he is fucking up my life and causing me pain&quot;, because she loves him so much and will do anything for him. It hurts her (and all of us), to think of what his life is going to be like, because it is very unlikely that he will ever have any of the things that you wish for a son and brother to have. He has to be constantly medicated, he&#039;s in out of the hospital, do you think he&#039;s going to have a wife in that condition? and kids, and a wedding? He doesn&#039;t even want to stay alive half the time, so probably not. My mom sees how painful life is for him, because he have a small idea of this too. Furthermore, with people like this, we are constantly freaked out about what is going to happen to him when my parents are gone. I will likely not be able to afford to support him, and it&#039;s a hard ordeal to care for a mentally ill family member. I mean, I WILL, but my point is that A), it doesn&#039;t just effect the person, their well being is linked to everyone in your family. When they are ill, you feel horrible about it, which is only natural. B) It&#039;s not about the mother feeling selfish for her own life always, but it&#039;s hard to know that you bring a person into the world who is going to have such a hard time existing in it. As you have noted there are exceptions, there&#039;s no way to know if your kid is going to be a lucky one. Plus, I know with many parents who have kids with autism don&#039;t EVER love them any less, but they constantly fear about who is going to take care of them when they are gone...

So I think the issue is alot more complicated, and not always about people just being shitty mothers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A bit after the fact, but I think I have some personal experience to weigh in on this one. I don&#8217;t think that this guy is saying, &#8220;these women don&#8217;t want to have the babies because they are selfish and it would take away from their happiness&#8221;. My younger brother is seriously mentally ill (he&#8217;s 22), and my mother is basically his caretaker. He is constantly in the hospital, and tried to kill himself a few months back, which resulted in him giving himself a heart attack due to an OD. After he got out of the hospital, he had more problems, and went back to the hospital again. All the while, my mother is trying to take care of him and give him everything he needs.</p>
<p>My mom is AWESOME. However, she HAS told me before that had she of known about this before he was born, she might have wished she had never had him. Which I know to many people much sound horrible, but it&#8217;s not her saying, &#8220;he is fucking up my life and causing me pain&#8221;, because she loves him so much and will do anything for him. It hurts her (and all of us), to think of what his life is going to be like, because it is very unlikely that he will ever have any of the things that you wish for a son and brother to have. He has to be constantly medicated, he&#8217;s in out of the hospital, do you think he&#8217;s going to have a wife in that condition? and kids, and a wedding? He doesn&#8217;t even want to stay alive half the time, so probably not. My mom sees how painful life is for him, because he have a small idea of this too. Furthermore, with people like this, we are constantly freaked out about what is going to happen to him when my parents are gone. I will likely not be able to afford to support him, and it&#8217;s a hard ordeal to care for a mentally ill family member. I mean, I WILL, but my point is that A), it doesn&#8217;t just effect the person, their well being is linked to everyone in your family. When they are ill, you feel horrible about it, which is only natural. B) It&#8217;s not about the mother feeling selfish for her own life always, but it&#8217;s hard to know that you bring a person into the world who is going to have such a hard time existing in it. As you have noted there are exceptions, there&#8217;s no way to know if your kid is going to be a lucky one. Plus, I know with many parents who have kids with autism don&#8217;t EVER love them any less, but they constantly fear about who is going to take care of them when they are gone&#8230;</p>
<p>So I think the issue is alot more complicated, and not always about people just being shitty mothers.</p>
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		<title>By: Bridget Jack Meyers</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=648&#038;cpage=1#comment-243</link>
		<dc:creator>Bridget Jack Meyers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:40:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clobbergirl.wordpress.com/?p=648#comment-243</guid>
		<description>So, Nicholas Provenzo responded to criticisms of his article without retracting or attempting to bolster his major blunder about people with DS being capable of only &quot;marginal productivity.&quot; That isn&#039;t a response at all.

Furthermore, neither you nor he has responded to what I&#039;m arguing, that if a woman cannot see herself being happy raising a special needs child and tries to curb this by terminating a DS pregnancy, she&#039;s not fit to be a parent in the first place. She may be able to legally terminate a DS child because of Roe v. Wade and the miracle of modern prenatal genetic testing, but she has absolutely no way of insuring that her child will not suffer from other, more severe disorders or injuries which can&#039;t be detected before birth. If she isn&#039;t okay with her child having Down Syndrome, how do we know she&#039;s going to be okay with her child having autism or cerebral palsy? How do we know she won&#039;t kill her disabled child as this woman did &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/mother-drowned-girl-four-because-she-was-disabled-923660.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;? It&#039;s the exact same mindset, only one is technically legal because of the loophole of Roe v. Wade and one isn&#039;t. Yet.

I can and will uphold the 10% who choose to have DS children as morally superior because &lt;em&gt;they are&lt;/em&gt;. They&#039;re saying they&#039;re going to love their children no matter what happens to them, and that they&#039;re going to put their children&#039;s happiness over their own happiness. The 90% who abort them are saying that their love comes with conditions and their own happiness is what&#039;s important. They&#039;re selfish and they&#039;re cowards and they know it. Aborting a child with DS may technically be legal, but it will never, ever be right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, Nicholas Provenzo responded to criticisms of his article without retracting or attempting to bolster his major blunder about people with DS being capable of only &#8220;marginal productivity.&#8221; That isn&#8217;t a response at all.</p>
<p>Furthermore, neither you nor he has responded to what I&#8217;m arguing, that if a woman cannot see herself being happy raising a special needs child and tries to curb this by terminating a DS pregnancy, she&#8217;s not fit to be a parent in the first place. She may be able to legally terminate a DS child because of Roe v. Wade and the miracle of modern prenatal genetic testing, but she has absolutely no way of insuring that her child will not suffer from other, more severe disorders or injuries which can&#8217;t be detected before birth. If she isn&#8217;t okay with her child having Down Syndrome, how do we know she&#8217;s going to be okay with her child having autism or cerebral palsy? How do we know she won&#8217;t kill her disabled child as this woman did <a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/mother-drowned-girl-four-because-she-was-disabled-923660.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>? It&#8217;s the exact same mindset, only one is technically legal because of the loophole of Roe v. Wade and one isn&#8217;t. Yet.</p>
<p>I can and will uphold the 10% who choose to have DS children as morally superior because <em>they are</em>. They&#8217;re saying they&#8217;re going to love their children no matter what happens to them, and that they&#8217;re going to put their children&#8217;s happiness over their own happiness. The 90% who abort them are saying that their love comes with conditions and their own happiness is what&#8217;s important. They&#8217;re selfish and they&#8217;re cowards and they know it. Aborting a child with DS may technically be legal, but it will never, ever be right.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Hsieh</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=648&#038;cpage=1#comment-242</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Hsieh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clobbergirl.wordpress.com/?p=648#comment-242</guid>
		<description>First, Nick Provenzo has responded to the many misrepresentations of his views in a followup post at:

http://ruleofreason.blogspot.com/2008/09/fundamental-right-to-abortion.htm

Second, I&#039;m going to speak up to support Nick Provenzo&#039;s *moral* defense of the 90% of women who have learned that their fetus has DS and who eventually chose to abort.

If a woman takes a serious look at the consequences for her life of having an abortion vs. raising that child, and she decides that an abortion would best foster her happiness in the full context of her life, then that is her legal right. And more importantly, she would also be making the *morally* right choice for herself.

Of course, if a woman chooses to have the DS child, that is her right and I genuinely hope that things work out as well as possible for the child and the family.

But to uphold the 10% women who choose to have the DS child as automatically morally superior to the 90% who choose to abort is wrong.

Those women who have made the difficult decision to abort do not deserve to be tarred with the label &quot;murderer&quot; for choosing their own happiness. And anyone who would attempt to saddle those women with an unearned guilt should be ashamed of themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, Nick Provenzo has responded to the many misrepresentations of his views in a followup post at:</p>
<p><a href="http://ruleofreason.blogspot.com/2008/09/fundamental-right-to-abortion.htm" rel="nofollow">http://ruleofreason.blogspot.com/2008/09/fundamental-right-to-abortion.htm</a></p>
<p>Second, I&#8217;m going to speak up to support Nick Provenzo&#8217;s *moral* defense of the 90% of women who have learned that their fetus has DS and who eventually chose to abort.</p>
<p>If a woman takes a serious look at the consequences for her life of having an abortion vs. raising that child, and she decides that an abortion would best foster her happiness in the full context of her life, then that is her legal right. And more importantly, she would also be making the *morally* right choice for herself.</p>
<p>Of course, if a woman chooses to have the DS child, that is her right and I genuinely hope that things work out as well as possible for the child and the family.</p>
<p>But to uphold the 10% women who choose to have the DS child as automatically morally superior to the 90% who choose to abort is wrong.</p>
<p>Those women who have made the difficult decision to abort do not deserve to be tarred with the label &#8220;murderer&#8221; for choosing their own happiness. And anyone who would attempt to saddle those women with an unearned guilt should be ashamed of themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=648&#038;cpage=1#comment-241</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 02:53:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clobbergirl.wordpress.com/?p=648#comment-241</guid>
		<description>Nicholas Provenso may experience a little twist of fate and end up with a wife and have a baby that she&#039;ll refuse to abort if it&#039;s predetermined handicapped. Good luck finding a respectable woman who would want him. The guys is an ass hat!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicholas Provenso may experience a little twist of fate and end up with a wife and have a baby that she&#8217;ll refuse to abort if it&#8217;s predetermined handicapped. Good luck finding a respectable woman who would want him. The guys is an ass hat!</p>
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		<title>By: Candy</title>
		<link>http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=648&#038;cpage=1#comment-240</link>
		<dc:creator>Candy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clobbergirl.wordpress.com/?p=648#comment-240</guid>
		<description>AMEN.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AMEN.</p>
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