Bill McKeever? I have never been able to sit down and chat with this fellow. But I am glad, [BJM], you would not peg him as evangelical anti-Mormon ilk.
And Scott W.? I know him. He has a solid heart for God.
So is there a link somewhere in that I can read your personal testimony for the Lord?
But before I (a Mormon) get too smug, I should note that my own forray into apologetics hasn’t been always pretty either. I have found myself increasingly jaded, more likely to ridicule apparently stupid comments, increasingly biting and sarcastic, and increasingly contemptuous of fellow human beings.
I find myself entertaining increasingly uncharitable thoughts about Evangelicals, considering them dull, repetitive, unintelligent, and remarkably lacking in self-observation.
I think these thoughts in spite of my personal knowledge of many admirable, sincere, and intelligent Evangelicals.
I find myself ashamed that I allow my encounters with less admirable Evangelicals to poison my view of the whole, in spite of the wonderful people I know are there.
I think this mindset serves no one. But I just… can’t… help it… when I’ve got someone sitting there spouting a bunch of idiocy about DNA studies, all the while blissfully unaware that the same DNA research would undermine accounts such as Genesis. Do they really just not get it? Or are they willfully refusing to listen?
Grrr…
And the uncharitable and sarcastic thoughts begin to flow again.
Where did you turn when you dropped the counter-cult ministry? I could use a lift.
I also thought you might be interested in the following link:
I have long been suspicious that ex-Mormons tend to go atheist rather than Evangelical (or other denomination). This was just personally apparent to me, since it seemed obvious that the same tools used to deconstruct Mormonism could just as easily be turned on the Christian narrative and belief. I knew so many atheist ex-Mormons who would gleefully quote Sandra Tanner, or use the arguments of other Evangelical counter-cultists when it suited their purposes. But Evangelicals would truly be fools to think these people are their allies. They think Evangelicals are just as full of rubbish as Mormons.
To me, it seemed highly likely that the more common exit route for Mormons was atheist/agnostic rather than Christian. But my views are purely anecdotal. But apparently I’m not the only one who has noticed this trend of ex-Mormons jettisoning faith altogether rather than getting “the correct faith.”
One thing I wonder though. Even if the counter-cult ministry knew about these trends among ex-Mormons, would they care?
I’m not sure. The impression I get from talking to some anti-Mormons is that they really don’t care where I end up in the hereafter. But are rather concerned with using an exchange with me as a kind of example. They want to show their fellow Evangelical onlookers how they “demolish the Mormon.” As if putting on a good show with me enhances their “street cred.” While others seem anxious only to discharge their duty with me and wash their garments of my blood. Like I’m another notch on their belt to show God at the judgment bar.
Hard to really feel the love.
Like I said, I really need to stop chasing these people.
“And Scott W.? I know him. He has a solid heart for God.”
I’m not going to judge him in that regard. I only know what I know of him, and that’s my experience with him at CARM as related here and what happened years later.
When he contacted me to apologize for what happened with CARM years later, he asked if he and his wife (I believe her name was Claudia) could talk to me on the phone, and I agreed. He rigorously asked me about my testimony, my belief in the Trinity, my belief in the Bible and its inerrancy, and what I thought about Mormonism. He also asked about my activities as an evangelical. I was reading the Bible every day, going to an evangelical Christian Bible study once a week, going to an evangelical small group with other women once a week, meeting for one-on-one time with my pastor on the BYU campus once a week, and regularly attending the local Assembly of God. I explained that I accepted Jesus as my Savior when I was 10, long before I ever knew anything about the LDS church, and had done my best to follow Him ever since.
I had precisely two points of disagreement with Scott: I’m not Calvinist and I believe it is possible that some Latter-day Saints are saved in spite of having things doctrinally wrong about God. Based on that, Scott insisted that I was not saved and told me I needed to repent and accept Jesus Christ as my Savior. It was clear to me that Scott had decided before he ever called me that I was not saved and nothing I could have said over the course of that long conversation would have convinced him otherwise. I believe Scott made some serious mistakes in his dealings with me, but no one is perfect.
I’ve never posted my testimony to this blog, but I’ll add it to my list of things to write about.
Hello. It’s been about 7 or so years since we had that telephone conversation. My wife and I remember it well. She’s sitting with me as I write this email.
I NEVER made any statement to the effect that you’re not an evangelical believer. I never judged your evangelical conviction. I sincerely think that you’ve conflated two or more people into one conversation.
Both my wife and I agree with this as we both were “witnesses” to that conversation.
On the other hand, if you have a problem with what we said to you on the phone, you need to take that up with us privately before you go on the WWW with slander. This can hurt the reputation of a brother or sister in Christ.
I’m afraid you and Claudia are remembering wrong Scott. I haven’t conflated anything. I noted the conversation in my journal the day we had it. You insisted that I was not saved and told me I needed to accept Jesus Christ as my Savior. Nothing I have written here is slander.
You expressly rejected me as a sister in Christ, so I make no apologies for not contacting you to discuss your behavior privately. What went down with CARM was a public affair, and the conversation we had on the phone was directly related to that.
Seth, I appreciate your perspective and that’s an interesting study you’ve linked to. I’ve heard counter-cult apologists say that they would rather have someone be atheist or agnostic than Mormon. I don’t want to say who because I may be remembering names wrong, but I’ve definitely heard it before.
There was a book I read in which the author talked about his experience in working with Ed Decker’s Ex-Mormons for Jesus, where he mentions that he found out almost no one involved in Ex-Mormons for Jesus was actually ex-Mormon. I believe it’s one of the reasons the group had to change their name to Saints Alive. I *think* the book was The Gainsayers by Darrick T. Evenson (who later left the LDS church himself).
It’s one of the reasons I’m not in favor of overtly and directly trying to pull Mormons out of the LDS church all of the time. I would rather see the LDS church reform from within than go down the tedious path of converting people out of Mormonism, then trying to turn them back to evangelical Christianity.
BTW, forgot to say, where did I go when I ditched the counter-cult ministry? I decided that I did not care if I was the only evangelical in the world who thought the counter-cult ministry was on the wrong track with Mormons, I was going to do and say what I thought was right. I soon found out that I was not alone though; Rock Canyon Assembly of God in Provo became my church for that reason, and Standing Together Ministries is another group with a similar attitude towards Mormons. Don’t know if that helps you at all, but there is hope for more positive dialogue and outreach.
I’m truly surprized we’re having this exchange. I spoke about this phone conversation with my wife tonight as we enjoyed a walk together. She and I both remember with total confidence that I did not say or insinuate what you have publically accused me of. In fact, we remember being kind with you and closing the conversation with peace.
So I guess I must close this exchange with an appeal to Scripture which asserts that such charges must be confirmed by two or three witnesses. My wife and I are two witness who agree.
Scott, we closed the conversation in peace after I told you that Jesus Christ was already my Savior and I had no way of disavowing Him so that I could pretend to accept Him again just to please you.
The Bible also says, “But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.” (Matthew 12:36) You may not remember what you said to me on the phone that day, but God does.
I cannot judge your heart, but it seems you may be struggling with bitterness (?) towards individuals. Genesis 37 -50 may be an encouragement to you as Joseph has many, many reasons to become bitter, but, through his genuine faith in God, was able to thank God for all things and for his Almighty hand of Providence in his life. BTW, I also believe that true faith, founded in the truths of Scripture, will give such a confidence that direct questioning of one’s true status in Christ will not bring such disturbance. Yes, it is uncomfortable — but who’s approval are we seeking? Others? Or the approval of Christ as he is revealed in Scripture?
I’d also encourage you not to name so many names. Personalities, i don’t think, are the focus of your points. And remember charity and kindness should grace even controversial communications.
We are told to examine our selves (to see if we are indeed in the faith) and to search the Scriptures. Wish you the best
I’ve heard some positive things about Standing Together Ministries, but don’t know too much about them. I believe Rock Canyon Assembly of God is just up the street from my parents’ house (I grew up in Provo – but live in Colorado now). Glad you found a way to stay happy in the faith (I always think it’s unfortunate when social squabbles undermine religious observance – no matter what religion).
As for reforms… I think Mormonism is going to be a mixed bag.
On correcting Mormon misconceptions about Evangelicals, I think there is great cause for optimism.
On getting Mormons closer to an acknowledgment on Christ’s grace – also great cause for optimism. You might check out the writings of Stephen Robinson and Robert Millett on the subject. They are both prominent Mormon scholars who vocally advocate for a resurgence of Mormonism’s inherent (and surprisingly strong) grace theology. I think it’s taking hold too.
On reconciling Mormon views of the Trinity… That’s tougher, but possibly still doable. If you guys are willing to put up with a “Social Trinitarian” view of the Trinity, I think we might reach a point where we can put up with each other. If not, I don’t see much progress.
On the divinization of man. We might be able to meet in the middle on this one since the LDS view isn’t really all that different than the Eastern Orthodox view of “theosis”… except on one major point, which may sink the whole deal:
The ontological divide between God and humanity.
Unfortunately, I think this one is going to end up being non-negotiable for both sides. The fact is, Mormons reject creation ex nihilo and collapse the ontological divide between God and man. I just don’t think there’s any way Evangelicals are ever going to be happy with that. And Mormons show no sign of softening on it. If anything, we’ve hardened our position on it since the 1950s.
The best that can be expected is probably an agreement to disagree and moving on to other areas where we are closer to a deal.
Thomas, I think you give good advice. I would not say that I’m struggling with bitterness, I put the events I’ve described in this post behind me years ago. I wrote this post because the other things I’ve blogged about on this blog (and plan to blog about) are affected and informed by my history with the counter-cult movement. I’ve had this post in my mind for a while now, and I’ve thought for a long time about if I wanted to give names and specific details. In the end, I decided I would because 95% of what I’ve written happened in public under real names. Besides, I think details are much more interesting to the readers than just generic references to “counter-cult apologists” and “LDS apologists.” I’m sure that if I did not give names, someone would accuse me of making things up altogether.
I never for a second doubted my salvation because of what some people have said to me, I simply find it very telling that even solid, active evangelicals will be branded “non-Christian” if they refuse to bow to the altar of Mormonism-is-a-cult. People can think of me what they want; when I was struggling to toe the counter-cult line, I was in spiritual turmoil. Now I have peace. (Well, I struggle a lot with missing my mother who died recently, but I feel pretty good about my relationship with Latter-day Saints)
It is great to hear your insight. I agree with so much of what you write! Stephen Robinson I have read a ton of. I never had time to take a class from him at BYU, but I take great pride in the fact that his long-time teaching assistant was my matron-of-honor at my wedding. Millett I have not read, but I heard he was working on a How Wide the Divide 2 with Greg Johnson of Standing Together. Greg was the leader of the evangelical Bible study at BYU for the first semester I was there, before he founded ST, and he is an awesome guy. But yeah, I’m pretty sure I could read Robinson from the pulpit of an evangelical church and no one would know the difference.
Theosis is one point where I feel evangelicals could move a little closer to Mormonism, a la C.S. Lewis and some others. While I don’t think the C.S. Lewis ideas on theosis are the same as the LDS ideas (namely because of the different natures of God in the respective doctrines), I wince when I hear evangelicals complain about the LDS belief in “becoming gods.”
I don’t really expect the LDS church to budge formally on its other doctrines without some kind of major change of heart from the leaders in the form of a revelation. However, would you believe that just last year, my husband and I had the missionaries over to dinner, and one of them claimed he had never heard the teaching that God the Father used to be a human who had to progress to become God? I brought it up and he said, “We don’t teach that, I’m a lifelong member and I’ve never heard that.” Both my husband (who is an RM and active member himself) and the other missionary said I was right.
It’s pure anecdotal evidence, but I do wonder if the Church is doing less emphasizing of its more divisive doctrines. Then again, it could just be one guy who really, really didn’t pay attention in church growing up.
Well… it doesn’t help that we are really, really short on details as to exactly what God was doing.
Joseph’s King Follett Sermon seems to imply that God the Father experienced mortality in the same way Christ did – as a perfect and divine individual who laid down his life and was resurrected.
But, honestly, we don’t really know. It’s all speculation. Some LDS scholars say God was always God (just in different form), some think he was once a “sinful man.” But doctrinally, it’s anyone’s guess as to the details.
The current “nice” Mormon-Evangelical dialogue books (that I know of) are:
“How Wide the Divide” – Stephen Robinson and Craig Blomberg
“Bridging the Divide” – Robert Millet and Greg Robinson
“Claiming Christ” – Robert Millet and Craig McDermott
They’re all pretty short and probably something you’d be interested in reading. I personally think “How Wide the Divide” is the best of the three. Both scholars came to the book intending to have a respectful debate, but definitely a debate critiquing each other’s positions.
Bridging the Divide is more of a stream-of-consciousness-style commentary on how an LDS and Evangelical scholar grew to become friends in spite of their differences – although they do ask pointed doctrinal questions (but that doesn’t seem to be the main thrust).
Claiming Christ is good too, but kind of schizophrenic. The problem is that the authors seem to be approaching the book from different assumptions and goals. Millett comes to the book looking to “bear his testimony” and share his experiences with scripture (like in Bridging). McDermott, by contrast, comes to the book obviously looking to pick a fight. A respectful and fair fight, but a fight nonetheless. So Millett is being warm and fuzzy and McDermott is being scrappy… It’s alright, but a bit frustrating in execution.
CARM is a great resource, but I agree that it is wrong to let “Christians” just use bad attacks on the Mormon faith. There is enough wrong with the LDS church to not use false attacks.
I’ll try to include here some of what I have seen and believe, being one of those unsaved and currently unwashed agnostics.
I might be lacking in any clear and concise understanding of the Bible. I read the Old Testament via http://www.thebricktestament.com/ , which is quite admittedly a more jaded look at things because I can’t stop laughing at the law section with the picture of the Lego man defiling the plastic bear whose expression truly seems to suit the moment in spite of the fact that this is what expression was intentionally and permanently molded onto its face. I also have http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ , and quite happily take every annotation therein with a grain of salt since some of them are utterly retarded and completely refutable with a little common sense. If the comments on the Brick Testament offend, I do sincerely apologize since I do not consider any less of the faith because of this particularly strange depiction of the scriptures. I’ve at least looked into the differences between various versions of the Bible, and while I am the first to admit my Christian education lacks a well-rounded gusto, I would still consider myself better-educated in the faith than most non-believers.
Most of my perception of Jesus comes through with the impression of a kind, caring figure who believed deeply in compassion for others. Both my parents were formerly practicing members of Christian faith; my father a Baptist, my mother a Catholic. For my father, his church’s heavy-handed condemnation of things they refused to even view for themselves drove him away from the organized part of religion if not the belief itself. My mother was so unhappy with how the Catholic faith treated her in a truly old-fashioned Catholic upbringing that she has become a Wiccan and chosen to accept the embrace of her own sense of spirituality. Both of them have taught me one thing quite consistently, however: Jesus was awesome, no matter what you choose to believe as to the nature of His being. Do I believe He was the son of God? I think it’s possible, yes. But the God in question is where I call skepticism in.
Taking this into account, I don’t understand how those who have embraced and accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior can bicker so harshly and cruelly with one another. Jesus presents as a figure who would be saddened by such displays, where those who should be spreading tolerance, love, and charity are instead niggling at each other over differences in interpretation and belief. Someone so full of love as Jesus could never wish for these conflicts to be the focus of anyone’s mind and heart, let alone wish for their dogmatic mongering to cause harm to others. I’ve been one of those people who have made fun of Christians of all kinds, bitter and reproachful because I refused to even TRY to understand or accept any view point other than my own. I’ve hurt a lot of people being that kind of person; they know who they are, and I’d like to make great apology to them for my ignorance and hatred being allowed to govern my reasoning.
You’re absolutely right about this kind of vitriolic behavior being the intellectual short bus. It has been since there have been creatures around cognizant enough to be aware that other people are different than they. Part of my anger came from those who would condemn me wholesale for not becoming part of a faith I’ve never felt I can believe in. I gave up my own little Wiccan bout for the very same reason: a lack of connection and faith. I haven’t found what’s right for me, but if I never do connect with Christianity I don’t want to be told I’m going to burn for all eternity or other such rubbish. The same goes for those who believe different views of Christianity and end up fighting one another. No one wants to be told their belief system (or non-committal belief system in my case) is wrong and will cost them horrid, unbearable damnation. Nothing is more cruel than a kindness falsely given, and I often get the feeling this “concern for my soul” is really just a terror tactic to get me to believe something I’m either not ready for or may never truly accept.
Nowadays it seems more important to me to be understanding and respectful. It took a lot of hard lessons and shameful behavior before I learned it, but now I spend time with people of different faiths who are more interested in what we have in common to share with love and kindness, and debate our differences with respect for the base humanity and intelligence that should be given to others. This isn’t to say this right is eternally granted; some people forfeit this privilege at the door since this respect must be mutual in order to work, but even they get a chance to try to convince me something I have been thinking might be wrong. There are those I’ll never agree with, but very few I will actually dislike for it. They always fall into the category of those who teach ignorance and hatred as a course of action, much like the counter-cult ministries seem fond of doing. Who would want to believe in a belief set that features God and/or Jesus as a figure who approves of cruel condemnation for differences that aren’t so big when you stop and look at the big picture? I know I wouldn’t.
It’s sites like this that get my blood boiling: http://objectiveministries.org/kidz/ . Of course, it only boils for a little while before I stop and laugh at the spiteful, poo-flinging ignorance touted by such people. If anyone wants to screech hatred from the top of their lungs or plug their ears and hum loudly when anything that might contradict them pops up, they can do so and I can chuckle to myself and move on. It does make life easier to let go of anger like that, doesn’t it?
Oh, and sorry to comment-spam, but I’d like to add one more point: CHRISTIANS HAVE MADE ME A BETTER PERSON. I have been BETTER and MORE KIND after listening to their loving, understanding, respectful opinions.
ONLY THESE KINDS OF CHRISTIANS HAVE EVER, EVER, EVER COME CLOSE TO MAKING ME CONSIDER ACCEPTING CHRIST AS MY LORD AND SAVIOR. NOT ONE PERSON WHO HAS TOLD ME I WILL BURN IN HELL HAS DONE ANYTHING BUT PUSH ME AWAY. This is simple fact. Only those Christians who demonstrated what I consider to be truly Christ-like behavior have ever made me interested in Christ. That’s all there is to it.
[BJM], if you think you can improve upon public evangelical engagement with Mormonism, you’d be most effective in being a doer and not just a talker. In other words, don’t just complain about it, but provide a living, breathing model of interaction that others can learn from.
Unfortunately, it seems most that complain aren’t being realistic, holistic models of engagement. They often limit themselves to interacting with (and even pandering to) non-mainstream pockets of Mormonism. Or they limit themselves to an abstract notion of “official doctrine” instead of more holistically engaging the breadth of modern Mormonism’s institutional channels of influence (those, by the way, come out of Salt Lake City, not Provo), mainstream Mormon beliefs, and extant oral traditions. Or they strictly insist on a myopic academic model of discourse that is out of touch with common people.
In other words, I would challenge you to be an example of engagement on the internet to common Mormon people in a way that lovingly and intelligently both preaches for the purity of the real gospel and specifically warns against falsehoods that keep people away from the truth. I can assure you that merely preaching against the evangelical counter-cult community is not going to be very edifying without some sort of alternative model to provide.
Grace and peace in Christ, who only justifies those who stop working and start trusting the God who justifies the ungodly by faith apart from works (Romans 4:4-8, contra the JST),
Well said Aaron. Any dialogue with mormons must by nature start and stop with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The idea of a “dialogue” with a false belief system is foreign to the Bible.
Aaron: Clearly you know very little about me if you think I am merely a “talker” and not a doer. I spent five years at Brigham Young University surrounded by Latter-day Saints, being a living example of what I believe and getting to share my faith on a daily basis, and it got noticed. It’s counter-cult ministers who think crawling the Internet in search of trophy chat transcripts with inept, ill-prepared Mormons constitutes “witnessing” to them. Pretty laughable to someone who has sat in a classroom full of Mormons and questioned the lectures of scholars from FARMS.
Thanks for urging me to be an example, but I’m extremely confident I’ve been a better example and brought more Latter-day Saints closer to God than 99% of the counter-cult ministers out there. And I think Mormons need to hear that not all of us approve of the behaviors and methods of the counter-cult ministry, so they’re gonna hear it from me.
Laura: I appreciate your feedback as always. You are one of the reasons that I firmly believe an attitude of love and respect will always be a better path than one of fear and condemnation.
Seth: I did not know that Greg and Dr. Millet had already written their book! I have been out of the loop for a while with my daughter’s disability and my mother’s illness. I own How Wide the Divide, I’ll have to check out the others you mentioned. There was a book I read while I was at BYU, it was not a dialogue but it was a book by an LDS guy trying to give a respectful overview of what evangelicals believe. It was called Understanding These Other Christians and it was very respectful and sincere. I would like to see evangelicals write books about Mormons with that sort of attitude.
Not to strain out a gnat, but if using the broad sense of “dialogue” (an interactive communication), I would have to disagree. But I think we’re on the same page. Of course we interactively communicate with non-believers. The idea of “dialogue” becomes problematic for me when it is restricted to dispassionate communication or to mere perspectival descriptions of what “you believe” and what “I believe”. Christian dialogue should ultimately include sincere questions, self-descriptions, and bold assertions that get personal (spoken upon the authority of God’s word). Why? Because when Jesus came, he preached repentance and the kingdom of God.
If our dialog is based on integrity and honesty and evangelistic principles, we should be able to look a dialogue partner in the eyes and say, “I sincerely want to understand you and I sincerely want to convert you.” As soon as dialogical model is stripped of evangelistic passions, it no longer deserves to be promoted as a model of evangelism.
My original comment is not intended to be an accusation that you, in your personal life, don’t live out the model you wish to promote. I for one think it is rad that you were able to go to BYU and engage Mormons over Christ and the truth.
The point of my original comment (perhaps unclear) is to challenge you to flesh out by example the model you wish to promote in the very online context you critique models you dislike. You’ll make a lot of online Mormon friends by critizing your brothers in counter-cult ministries, but that comes across as cheap pandering if you don’t show us (the same audience that read your blog post) what your idea of evangelistic interaction should actually look like. It’s one thing to merely mock and tear down Christian brothers you disagree with in a public venue, but it’s quite another to supplement that with an example (in the same venue) that edifies and builds up.
Thank you for clarifying, Aaron. Blogging about how I think evangelicals should approach Mormons is definitely on the agenda. I felt that pointing out some of what we are doing wrong was a good first step, but there’s definitely more to come as my time permits. Take care.
CG, I’m back briefly tonight after a full day of ministry.
The apologetics deal that one observes in the Intermountain West is a mixed bag; and yet CG, dialogue agenda pushed on us in the West sometimes has much to be desired in the way of hearty love, authentic sincerity, courage and freedom to share biblical conviction, and real sacrifice.
To all: Better than blogs, modern books, and conferences, I love to delve back in the ways of how biblical prophets, apostles, elders, deacons, and missionaries through each one of their individual, unique personalities were led by God in approaching others, confronting others, and gossiping the true gospel to others. The biblical guidebook is the ongoing, inexhaustible treasure house of God’s nature and His ways. Remind me of this often.
Very rarely have I encountered an Evangelical in online debate mode who bothered much with telling me why his or her religion was desirable. Most of them devoted the lion’s share of the exchange to telling me why my religion stinks.
I just wanted to say thank you and that I appreciate your courage in sharing what your experiences in an honest way.
I also appreciate you being specific and naming names, for two reasons.
1 is because that is how I found this. I am a participant on the CARM forums, and while in one way I find them to be a very helpful resource, there are some issues with their moderating and administration that have been greatly troubling.
This is the precise reason I went searching the net, for feedback from any others, who may have experienced the same things.
It seems as though some of the people in CARM’s inner circle, are more interested and focused on gossiping and arguing, then they are at actually encouraging others in the name of Christianity.
Their attempts to dominate and control, without any accountability to those that participate on their forums, are what is particularly troubling to me, as I’ve seen NUMEROUS people, just like yourself, have experiences with SUPPOSED Christians, and then leave very discouraged and disheartened.
The other reason I think it’s good to name names, is that it’s precisely these PHONY christian leaders who are worried about protecting “an image”, that SHOULD be called out.
Since when does any Christian have “an image”?
I thought there is NO ONE whom is righteous.
The ONLY one that is righteous is God, and our savior Jesus.
So this guy worried about his image, seems to be someone quite obviously someone who has become “puffed-up”, and lost his focus (if he ever truly had any”.
Galatians 6 tells us quite clearly, that anyone who thinks himself to be something, when he is really nothing, deceives himself.
I’d direct your “friend” to that piece of scripture, while he’s so worried about his “image”.
Hey Mark, thanks for sharing your own experience here. I haven’t given CARM more than a passing glance since this happened, but I’m not surprised to hear that things haven’t changed much.
I’d say more but I gotta run, will say more later. Take care.
So, I spent a little time reading the CARM Mormonism forums since my last post, and yup, the quality of discussion there is about what I remember. Evangelicals answering every reference to Brigham Young and Joseph Smith with “He was a false prophet and a liar!”, dismissing all LDS testimonies out of hand as automatically spiritually bankrupt, ridiculing celestial wives and spirit babies (because you know, it’s impossible to ridicule the rest of Christianity in a similar fashion). The quality of input from the LDS participants that I saw wasn’t a heck of a lot better, but I suspect all of the really capable LDS apologists have long since left out of boredom or been banned.
Anyways, if my story does anything, I hope it shows evangelicals that you can be a strong Christian witness to other sects and faiths while still telling the counter-cult ministry to take a hike. I hope it shows Latter-day Saints that not all of us are interested in dialogue that involves calling your leaders liars ad nauseam.
I think Aaron was right earlier that it’s easy for me to sit back and say what I think other people are doing wrong, and I don’t intend to stop there. I still plan to write about what I think is a better approach to Latter-day Saints. All in time.
Hey, I meant to tell you that some of the responses to you here I found to be pretty obnoxious.
Aaron’s was one of them.
It’s amazing when people don’t like your opinion, they things they come up with.
And as you RIGHTLY said – “how do you know what I’ve done or not been doing?”
But as he moves to lecture you, he totally moves past his own wrongs and issues.
As for CARM, what troubles me about that place is that while it is SUPPOSED to be a Christian forum, it seems more about idle gossip and pointless bickering, and what’s even MORE troubling, is that it seems as though the administrators of the site, seem to not only be caught up in that, but what’s worse is that is seems apparent that they use their administrative powers to further this agenda, and manipulate the outcome of their participation.
So not only is the focus wrong, but the means are corrupt.
I would REALLY appreciate hearing your insights, as a former moderator there.
I’m still not sure what to think, because Matt has provided a lot of really good counsel material on a wide variety of subjects, and at times seems pretty sincere.
But other times he seems quite corrupt.
I’m not sure what to think.
Send me an email, if you don’t wish to share this publicly.
Mark, I’m not sure that there’s much more insight I could give you than what I’ve written in my initial post. There were very few moderators at CARM at the time and I never spoke with any of them but Matt. My moderating stint was short-lived, probably lasting about two months. I mentioned deleting a post there in my journal entry for February 29, 2000, so I was a moderator before then, and my account of being removed from moderation is dated March 29, 2000.
I’m hesitant to condemn him now based on what happened in 2000, I can only tell you what I knew of him then. He came on talking a good game (he’s a much better debater vocally than he is in writing) and seemed very passionate and sincere, and I initially believed he was really concerned about Mormons, but the way he treated Mormons on his forums began to bother me. Back then, capable LDS apologists were regularly responding to his posted arguments on Mormons. His responses to their arguments were poor and he knew it, so he would just delete them or try to act like it was the same ol’ same ol’ and brush it off. Wade Englund was one person who kept responding though, and Matt began grumbling about banning him and eventually did so. When I would disagree with him about deleting a post or banning someone or tried to say that we should encourage the evangelical participants to be more respectful of Mormon beliefs (and I was always as polite as possible about bringing it up), he would get irate with me. I just felt bullied most of the time, and when he brought up Scott’s complaints about the links on my web site, I really felt bullied. Who the hell were these two grown men to be telling an 18-year-old girl what she could and could not be linking to on her personal homepage?? (And please note that Scott did later apologize)
He would also regularly hang out in chat rooms attempting to engage unsuspecting, unprepared Latter-day Saints so he could post a chat transcript on his web site of what Mormons “really” believe. I’m not a big fan of this technique because anyone can find an unprepared bumpkin of any religion in a chat room somewhere and make them look dumb. Heck, Bill Maher just made an entire movie doing that to people (mostly Christians) in person.
I left CARM feeling that Matt’s actions and behavior, both towards me and towards Mormons, belied his claims to genuine concern for them. The Bible says it does not matter how much good work you do or how much you give for God, without love you’re nothing (1 Corinthians 13:3). I never felt love for Mormons there, not behind the scenes and not publicly on the forums, and I see little evidence that things there have changed.
If you want to see the work of an evangelical who (in my opinion) does a superb job interacting with Mormons in an online setting, register at http://www.mormonapologetics.org and look up rhinomelon’s posts. If you’re wondering if CARM is a waste of your time, I’d say it is, and the sooner you leave the happier you’ll be. Hope that helps.
Jack, I”m impressed. You stick to your guns but you’ve got some sense in how to and how not to actually reach out to Mormons. Wish there were more like you…
What a great, although tragic story. You and I took different paths but we ended up with the same journey and destination away from counter-cult approaches to new religions like Mormonism. Thanks for sharing with us.
I feel the vibes of your heart for these people the LDS Mormons, and I agree, and thank you. Yes, we need more people who can show Christ’s love, and respond to them with some intelligence. I, my self, have lived in SLC Utah for over 13 years. Consequently, over those years, some “Utahans” were Mormon; they were my doctor, my dentist, my boss, my college teachers and some of them my friends, even found respect among some high intellectual Mormons I’ve shared with…, even so however, I never was became a Mormon, but I know all about them, all about their strange teachings and doctrines, history and biblical short comings, and even witnessed to the so-called “jack Mormons” on every “cruise night” as an evangelist with the gospel of Jesus, but this didn’t make me an anti-mormon, and yet I am somewhat against them; I suppose its because of the amount of knowledge that I have read on them. In any case, I believe that the Mormons use the term anti-M to defend themselves, and/or to ward off any man who stands against their religion. I am someone who understands the differences between the Christian religion and the Mormon Lds belief system.
Moreover, I believe that every true Christian should use what ever means possible to reach these people, but with God’s love. For without love, no matter how hard you try, your message can’t be heard. We should teach in such a manner that is without fault in character, to show at least some intellecual demeanor, as to express a degree of study, that informs the public the clear doctrinal information, without undue emotion, so that these people can see outside of the stone box, which has yet to be found, in a most remote hill, in up state NY.
Ray, I definitely think there is such a thing as an anti-Mormon. The Wikipedia article on anti-Mormonism is actually pretty good at explaining it, though I don’t agree with the categories in which they group anti-Mormons. I think that skeptical anti-Mormons (those who are atheist/agnostic/deist) belong in a category of their own separate from any types of evangelical anti-Mormons.
That said, there are definitely Mormons with persecution complexes who abuse the term and claim that anyone who has some sort of criticism of the church is an anti-Mormon. That’s not the case. Folks like me certainly have criticisms of the church, but it isn’t our theme or our focus. I’ve specifically avoided doing posts which outright criticize the LDS church for the time being because I don’t want this to be seen as just another blog that criticizes Mormonism.
Just wanted to say thanks for posting your story. I told Meredith about my run-in with you and she told me how totally awesome you are. I can see why! (Also, it is thanks to you that I have a few relatives who share my love for Christian rock!)
On another note, I think it is great to know that there are so many people out there who understand that you can totally disagree with someone’s religious views and still recognise that they are good people. As I have so often tried to explain to others, I don’t believe that Mormons (or any group, for that matter) have a monopoly on the “goodness” market.
During Fall Semester 2001, when Mer and I were roommates, she came with me to the Five Iron Frenzy concert in Provo. We had a blast. I remember there was this guy in the crowd who was rather heavyset with a really nasty mohawk who kept mashing against Meredith until she finally shoved him back hard. He turned around and glared at her for a second, and she glared right back, and I seriously thought that guy was going to be leaving the concert on a stretcher… LOL.
It was so great that she came with me though. BYU was a lonely experience at times and it’s hard to get Mormons into Five Iron Frenzy, but Mer came with me and she loved it. She even bought a band t-shirt. I sure do miss her.
I’m glad you enjoyed my story, welcome to the blog and thanks for dropping by.
As a complete non-believer in any of the religious traditions, but an avid seeker for a Higher Being, I want to say that it is nice to see people be honest, like you have done.
Being from out of state (VA), and a so called “atheist”, Utah can be an interesting place. I’ve stayed since it is a great community with good ethical foundations, regardless of what the dominate religion is.
I bore over the tedious altercations I’ve seen displayed down at the LDS Conference Center. In fact, just tonight I was down at the Gateway Mall in downtown Salt Lake City and received many pamphlets from Evangelicals (I assume), which I’m totally cool with. However, as soon as a guy handed me one about Joseph Smith I became very annoyed.
Why is it that people feel they need to slander? Why do they need to go after Joseph Smith if what they have is from God?
Do they think God is not capable enough to touch people’s hearts without having to resort to slander?
Do they really not know much of their own histories? Mormons have strange doctrines and history that’s for sure, but why do evangelicals think they are so much different? Did God not forsake them during the reign of the Holy Catholic Church? Why did it take Martin Luther to bring back the correct understanding in regards to a Pontiff?
Get a life counter-cult ministries. that or just be like the mormon boys and only bother us for two years.
I’d love to hear Aaron or his friends thoughts on that.
[...] Jack Meyers had such a great analogy for it. She, fortunately, understands the difference in being silly and being reasonable (protip: her story with LDS missionaries telling her her baptism was [...]
Greetings. I’ve seen some of your posts on Mormon Discussions and that is how I found this blog. Seems you get a little heat from both sides of the fence–which may be an indication that at the heart and soul of both sides there is a war going on, however politely it may be waged (or not so).
While I understand your point–I think–that dialogue with LDS (I am an Evangelical too, btw) should rise above condescension and simple accusations of dishonesty among LDS leaders, I tend to agree with Aaron who seems to basically be asking what practical improvements would you suggest?
I think the danger here is the whole concept of bridge-building itself. What is the purpose? Of course, as Christians, we are to love those around us (whether LDS or not) and share the hope we have at every opportunity, but on the other hand, we are never told that we should build bridges to deception in the process. That’s where it gets tricky. The hard truth is that either Mormonism is one of the most insidious deceptions ever pawned on mankind and should therefore be exposed as such, or it is the truth and we should all convert (even Orson Pratt would agree). Unless the Biblical God does not exist, I agree with Pratt (on that point) and see very little room for middle ground. Mormonism itself has defined the ground rules by insisting it is the only true church and its prophets are the only ones with God-given authority.
The truth of the matter is, either God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith or they did not. Either the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be or it is not. Either that–and much more–is true or it isn’t. If it isn’t, then what are the implications?
I don’t know of anyone who advocates attacking the Mormon laity for their sincerely held beliefs. I know that online discussions can easily degenerate into name-calling cat-fights, but that is the nature of the internet. I’ve seen both sides fall into this and am probably guilty of a little myself–though I try not to be.
I produce a weekly radio program that attempts to expose the deception in as loving a manner as possible. We feature the personal testimonies of former Latter-day Saints. You can listen to the program online, if you’d like to, here:
[...] if you would like to read an “insiders” perspective on the goings-on at CARM, read here and here. Within the context of that discussion I briefly mentioned the CARM discussion forums. [...]
Jack…you are breath of fresh air. I too am involved in a war at present at CARM. Pride won’t allow me to let it go. I pray that God will give me the strength to do so. Maybe this blog entry will help me do so.
Hey, Bridget, thanks for sharing your journey–which I believe was directed by God–into the bridge-builders’s zone. You truly have stepped off the short bus. May God continue to empower you and increase your wisdom and project your ministry.
The blood of Jesus can cover SO MUCH unintentional error if we will only believe in him and follow him. Whether we are a Mormon or an evangelical, his light and joy grow ever brighter in our hearts as we pursue him. The light is small at first, uh?
To Roger:
Have you ever interviewed on your show someone who used to be a non-Mormon Christian and is now a Mormon Christian? I met a Mormon like that once. He told me he was a Christian before he became a Mormon—he described to me his relationship with the Lord—and said that he is still a Christian today as a Mormon.
I appreciate your efforts to be as loving as possible.
Dittos on the breath of fresh air comment. Also, turns out we were at BYU at the same time. I wish I could have known you back then so I could meet you in person.
I got involved in the Interfaith Dialogues led by Robert Millet at BYU a few years ago. This last year, my wife and I hosted 3 dialogues in our home. Greg Johnson would let me know when a group of evangelical students would be coming through town, and I would email a bunch of friends, and we would spend 3 or 4 hours at our house, in little informal circles of 4-6 people.
They are SO fun. My wife and my main goal is to have an atmosphere that is comfortable for even the most shy person to ask those long-held questions that they’ve always been too nervous to ask. I’m very glad we met Greg, and I hope we get to do a lot more in the future.
Anyway, I’m looking to read more of your blog in the future. Feel free to contact me by email.
Bill McKeever? I have never been able to sit down and chat with this fellow. But I am glad, [BJM], you would not peg him as evangelical anti-Mormon ilk.
And Scott W.? I know him. He has a solid heart for God.
So is there a link somewhere in that I can read your personal testimony for the Lord?
Yikes. That’s rough.
But before I (a Mormon) get too smug, I should note that my own forray into apologetics hasn’t been always pretty either. I have found myself increasingly jaded, more likely to ridicule apparently stupid comments, increasingly biting and sarcastic, and increasingly contemptuous of fellow human beings.
I find myself entertaining increasingly uncharitable thoughts about Evangelicals, considering them dull, repetitive, unintelligent, and remarkably lacking in self-observation.
I think these thoughts in spite of my personal knowledge of many admirable, sincere, and intelligent Evangelicals.
I find myself ashamed that I allow my encounters with less admirable Evangelicals to poison my view of the whole, in spite of the wonderful people I know are there.
I think this mindset serves no one. But I just… can’t… help it… when I’ve got someone sitting there spouting a bunch of idiocy about DNA studies, all the while blissfully unaware that the same DNA research would undermine accounts such as Genesis. Do they really just not get it? Or are they willfully refusing to listen?
Grrr…
And the uncharitable and sarcastic thoughts begin to flow again.
Where did you turn when you dropped the counter-cult ministry? I could use a lift.
I also thought you might be interested in the following link:
http://johnwmorehead.blogspot.com/2008/10/lds-religious-disaffiliation-narratives.html
I have long been suspicious that ex-Mormons tend to go atheist rather than Evangelical (or other denomination). This was just personally apparent to me, since it seemed obvious that the same tools used to deconstruct Mormonism could just as easily be turned on the Christian narrative and belief. I knew so many atheist ex-Mormons who would gleefully quote Sandra Tanner, or use the arguments of other Evangelical counter-cultists when it suited their purposes. But Evangelicals would truly be fools to think these people are their allies. They think Evangelicals are just as full of rubbish as Mormons.
To me, it seemed highly likely that the more common exit route for Mormons was atheist/agnostic rather than Christian. But my views are purely anecdotal. But apparently I’m not the only one who has noticed this trend of ex-Mormons jettisoning faith altogether rather than getting “the correct faith.”
One thing I wonder though. Even if the counter-cult ministry knew about these trends among ex-Mormons, would they care?
I’m not sure. The impression I get from talking to some anti-Mormons is that they really don’t care where I end up in the hereafter. But are rather concerned with using an exchange with me as a kind of example. They want to show their fellow Evangelical onlookers how they “demolish the Mormon.” As if putting on a good show with me enhances their “street cred.” While others seem anxious only to discharge their duty with me and wash their garments of my blood. Like I’m another notch on their belt to show God at the judgment bar.
Hard to really feel the love.
Like I said, I really need to stop chasing these people.
“And Scott W.? I know him. He has a solid heart for God.”
I’m not going to judge him in that regard. I only know what I know of him, and that’s my experience with him at CARM as related here and what happened years later.
When he contacted me to apologize for what happened with CARM years later, he asked if he and his wife (I believe her name was Claudia) could talk to me on the phone, and I agreed. He rigorously asked me about my testimony, my belief in the Trinity, my belief in the Bible and its inerrancy, and what I thought about Mormonism. He also asked about my activities as an evangelical. I was reading the Bible every day, going to an evangelical Christian Bible study once a week, going to an evangelical small group with other women once a week, meeting for one-on-one time with my pastor on the BYU campus once a week, and regularly attending the local Assembly of God. I explained that I accepted Jesus as my Savior when I was 10, long before I ever knew anything about the LDS church, and had done my best to follow Him ever since.
I had precisely two points of disagreement with Scott: I’m not Calvinist and I believe it is possible that some Latter-day Saints are saved in spite of having things doctrinally wrong about God. Based on that, Scott insisted that I was not saved and told me I needed to repent and accept Jesus Christ as my Savior. It was clear to me that Scott had decided before he ever called me that I was not saved and nothing I could have said over the course of that long conversation would have convinced him otherwise. I believe Scott made some serious mistakes in his dealings with me, but no one is perfect.
I’ve never posted my testimony to this blog, but I’ll add it to my list of things to write about.
Hello. It’s been about 7 or so years since we had that telephone conversation. My wife and I remember it well. She’s sitting with me as I write this email.
I NEVER made any statement to the effect that you’re not an evangelical believer. I never judged your evangelical conviction. I sincerely think that you’ve conflated two or more people into one conversation.
Both my wife and I agree with this as we both were “witnesses” to that conversation.
On the other hand, if you have a problem with what we said to you on the phone, you need to take that up with us privately before you go on the WWW with slander. This can hurt the reputation of a brother or sister in Christ.
Scott W.
I’m afraid you and Claudia are remembering wrong Scott. I haven’t conflated anything. I noted the conversation in my journal the day we had it. You insisted that I was not saved and told me I needed to accept Jesus Christ as my Savior. Nothing I have written here is slander.
You expressly rejected me as a sister in Christ, so I make no apologies for not contacting you to discuss your behavior privately. What went down with CARM was a public affair, and the conversation we had on the phone was directly related to that.
Seth, I appreciate your perspective and that’s an interesting study you’ve linked to. I’ve heard counter-cult apologists say that they would rather have someone be atheist or agnostic than Mormon. I don’t want to say who because I may be remembering names wrong, but I’ve definitely heard it before.
There was a book I read in which the author talked about his experience in working with Ed Decker’s Ex-Mormons for Jesus, where he mentions that he found out almost no one involved in Ex-Mormons for Jesus was actually ex-Mormon. I believe it’s one of the reasons the group had to change their name to Saints Alive. I *think* the book was The Gainsayers by Darrick T. Evenson (who later left the LDS church himself).
It’s one of the reasons I’m not in favor of overtly and directly trying to pull Mormons out of the LDS church all of the time. I would rather see the LDS church reform from within than go down the tedious path of converting people out of Mormonism, then trying to turn them back to evangelical Christianity.
BTW, forgot to say, where did I go when I ditched the counter-cult ministry? I decided that I did not care if I was the only evangelical in the world who thought the counter-cult ministry was on the wrong track with Mormons, I was going to do and say what I thought was right. I soon found out that I was not alone though; Rock Canyon Assembly of God in Provo became my church for that reason, and Standing Together Ministries is another group with a similar attitude towards Mormons. Don’t know if that helps you at all, but there is hope for more positive dialogue and outreach.
[BJM],
I’m truly surprized we’re having this exchange. I spoke about this phone conversation with my wife tonight as we enjoyed a walk together. She and I both remember with total confidence that I did not say or insinuate what you have publically accused me of. In fact, we remember being kind with you and closing the conversation with peace.
So I guess I must close this exchange with an appeal to Scripture which asserts that such charges must be confirmed by two or three witnesses. My wife and I are two witness who agree.
Sincerely,
Scott W.
Scott, we closed the conversation in peace after I told you that Jesus Christ was already my Savior and I had no way of disavowing Him so that I could pretend to accept Him again just to please you.
The Bible also says, “But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.” (Matthew 12:36) You may not remember what you said to me on the phone that day, but God does.
I wish you and Claudia the best nonetheless.
[BJM],
I cannot judge your heart, but it seems you may be struggling with bitterness (?) towards individuals. Genesis 37 -50 may be an encouragement to you as Joseph has many, many reasons to become bitter, but, through his genuine faith in God, was able to thank God for all things and for his Almighty hand of Providence in his life. BTW, I also believe that true faith, founded in the truths of Scripture, will give such a confidence that direct questioning of one’s true status in Christ will not bring such disturbance. Yes, it is uncomfortable — but who’s approval are we seeking? Others? Or the approval of Christ as he is revealed in Scripture?
I’d also encourage you not to name so many names. Personalities, i don’t think, are the focus of your points. And remember charity and kindness should grace even controversial communications.
We are told to examine our selves (to see if we are indeed in the faith) and to search the Scriptures. Wish you the best
Thanks [BJM].
I’ve heard some positive things about Standing Together Ministries, but don’t know too much about them. I believe Rock Canyon Assembly of God is just up the street from my parents’ house (I grew up in Provo – but live in Colorado now). Glad you found a way to stay happy in the faith (I always think it’s unfortunate when social squabbles undermine religious observance – no matter what religion).
As for reforms… I think Mormonism is going to be a mixed bag.
On correcting Mormon misconceptions about Evangelicals, I think there is great cause for optimism.
On getting Mormons closer to an acknowledgment on Christ’s grace – also great cause for optimism. You might check out the writings of Stephen Robinson and Robert Millett on the subject. They are both prominent Mormon scholars who vocally advocate for a resurgence of Mormonism’s inherent (and surprisingly strong) grace theology. I think it’s taking hold too.
On reconciling Mormon views of the Trinity… That’s tougher, but possibly still doable. If you guys are willing to put up with a “Social Trinitarian” view of the Trinity, I think we might reach a point where we can put up with each other. If not, I don’t see much progress.
On the divinization of man. We might be able to meet in the middle on this one since the LDS view isn’t really all that different than the Eastern Orthodox view of “theosis”… except on one major point, which may sink the whole deal:
The ontological divide between God and humanity.
Unfortunately, I think this one is going to end up being non-negotiable for both sides. The fact is, Mormons reject creation ex nihilo and collapse the ontological divide between God and man. I just don’t think there’s any way Evangelicals are ever going to be happy with that. And Mormons show no sign of softening on it. If anything, we’ve hardened our position on it since the 1950s.
The best that can be expected is probably an agreement to disagree and moving on to other areas where we are closer to a deal.
Thomas, I think you give good advice. I would not say that I’m struggling with bitterness, I put the events I’ve described in this post behind me years ago. I wrote this post because the other things I’ve blogged about on this blog (and plan to blog about) are affected and informed by my history with the counter-cult movement. I’ve had this post in my mind for a while now, and I’ve thought for a long time about if I wanted to give names and specific details. In the end, I decided I would because 95% of what I’ve written happened in public under real names. Besides, I think details are much more interesting to the readers than just generic references to “counter-cult apologists” and “LDS apologists.” I’m sure that if I did not give names, someone would accuse me of making things up altogether.
I never for a second doubted my salvation because of what some people have said to me, I simply find it very telling that even solid, active evangelicals will be branded “non-Christian” if they refuse to bow to the altar of Mormonism-is-a-cult. People can think of me what they want; when I was struggling to toe the counter-cult line, I was in spiritual turmoil. Now I have peace. (Well, I struggle a lot with missing my mother who died recently, but I feel pretty good about my relationship with Latter-day Saints)
Seth,
It is great to hear your insight. I agree with so much of what you write! Stephen Robinson I have read a ton of. I never had time to take a class from him at BYU, but I take great pride in the fact that his long-time teaching assistant was my matron-of-honor at my wedding. Millett I have not read, but I heard he was working on a How Wide the Divide 2 with Greg Johnson of Standing Together. Greg was the leader of the evangelical Bible study at BYU for the first semester I was there, before he founded ST, and he is an awesome guy. But yeah, I’m pretty sure I could read Robinson from the pulpit of an evangelical church and no one would know the difference.
Theosis is one point where I feel evangelicals could move a little closer to Mormonism, a la C.S. Lewis and some others. While I don’t think the C.S. Lewis ideas on theosis are the same as the LDS ideas (namely because of the different natures of God in the respective doctrines), I wince when I hear evangelicals complain about the LDS belief in “becoming gods.”
I don’t really expect the LDS church to budge formally on its other doctrines without some kind of major change of heart from the leaders in the form of a revelation. However, would you believe that just last year, my husband and I had the missionaries over to dinner, and one of them claimed he had never heard the teaching that God the Father used to be a human who had to progress to become God? I brought it up and he said, “We don’t teach that, I’m a lifelong member and I’ve never heard that.” Both my husband (who is an RM and active member himself) and the other missionary said I was right.
It’s pure anecdotal evidence, but I do wonder if the Church is doing less emphasizing of its more divisive doctrines. Then again, it could just be one guy who really, really didn’t pay attention in church growing up.
Well… it doesn’t help that we are really, really short on details as to exactly what God was doing.
Joseph’s King Follett Sermon seems to imply that God the Father experienced mortality in the same way Christ did – as a perfect and divine individual who laid down his life and was resurrected.
But, honestly, we don’t really know. It’s all speculation. Some LDS scholars say God was always God (just in different form), some think he was once a “sinful man.” But doctrinally, it’s anyone’s guess as to the details.
The current “nice” Mormon-Evangelical dialogue books (that I know of) are:
“How Wide the Divide” – Stephen Robinson and Craig Blomberg
“Bridging the Divide” – Robert Millet and Greg Robinson
“Claiming Christ” – Robert Millet and Craig McDermott
They’re all pretty short and probably something you’d be interested in reading. I personally think “How Wide the Divide” is the best of the three. Both scholars came to the book intending to have a respectful debate, but definitely a debate critiquing each other’s positions.
Bridging the Divide is more of a stream-of-consciousness-style commentary on how an LDS and Evangelical scholar grew to become friends in spite of their differences – although they do ask pointed doctrinal questions (but that doesn’t seem to be the main thrust).
Claiming Christ is good too, but kind of schizophrenic. The problem is that the authors seem to be approaching the book from different assumptions and goals. Millett comes to the book looking to “bear his testimony” and share his experiences with scripture (like in Bridging). McDermott, by contrast, comes to the book obviously looking to pick a fight. A respectful and fair fight, but a fight nonetheless. So Millett is being warm and fuzzy and McDermott is being scrappy… It’s alright, but a bit frustrating in execution.
CARM is a great resource, but I agree that it is wrong to let “Christians” just use bad attacks on the Mormon faith. There is enough wrong with the LDS church to not use false attacks.
I’ll try to include here some of what I have seen and believe, being one of those unsaved and currently unwashed agnostics.
I might be lacking in any clear and concise understanding of the Bible. I read the Old Testament via http://www.thebricktestament.com/ , which is quite admittedly a more jaded look at things because I can’t stop laughing at the law section with the picture of the Lego man defiling the plastic bear whose expression truly seems to suit the moment in spite of the fact that this is what expression was intentionally and permanently molded onto its face. I also have http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ , and quite happily take every annotation therein with a grain of salt since some of them are utterly retarded and completely refutable with a little common sense. If the comments on the Brick Testament offend, I do sincerely apologize since I do not consider any less of the faith because of this particularly strange depiction of the scriptures. I’ve at least looked into the differences between various versions of the Bible, and while I am the first to admit my Christian education lacks a well-rounded gusto, I would still consider myself better-educated in the faith than most non-believers.
Most of my perception of Jesus comes through with the impression of a kind, caring figure who believed deeply in compassion for others. Both my parents were formerly practicing members of Christian faith; my father a Baptist, my mother a Catholic. For my father, his church’s heavy-handed condemnation of things they refused to even view for themselves drove him away from the organized part of religion if not the belief itself. My mother was so unhappy with how the Catholic faith treated her in a truly old-fashioned Catholic upbringing that she has become a Wiccan and chosen to accept the embrace of her own sense of spirituality. Both of them have taught me one thing quite consistently, however: Jesus was awesome, no matter what you choose to believe as to the nature of His being. Do I believe He was the son of God? I think it’s possible, yes. But the God in question is where I call skepticism in.
Taking this into account, I don’t understand how those who have embraced and accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior can bicker so harshly and cruelly with one another. Jesus presents as a figure who would be saddened by such displays, where those who should be spreading tolerance, love, and charity are instead niggling at each other over differences in interpretation and belief. Someone so full of love as Jesus could never wish for these conflicts to be the focus of anyone’s mind and heart, let alone wish for their dogmatic mongering to cause harm to others. I’ve been one of those people who have made fun of Christians of all kinds, bitter and reproachful because I refused to even TRY to understand or accept any view point other than my own. I’ve hurt a lot of people being that kind of person; they know who they are, and I’d like to make great apology to them for my ignorance and hatred being allowed to govern my reasoning.
You’re absolutely right about this kind of vitriolic behavior being the intellectual short bus. It has been since there have been creatures around cognizant enough to be aware that other people are different than they. Part of my anger came from those who would condemn me wholesale for not becoming part of a faith I’ve never felt I can believe in. I gave up my own little Wiccan bout for the very same reason: a lack of connection and faith. I haven’t found what’s right for me, but if I never do connect with Christianity I don’t want to be told I’m going to burn for all eternity or other such rubbish. The same goes for those who believe different views of Christianity and end up fighting one another. No one wants to be told their belief system (or non-committal belief system in my case) is wrong and will cost them horrid, unbearable damnation. Nothing is more cruel than a kindness falsely given, and I often get the feeling this “concern for my soul” is really just a terror tactic to get me to believe something I’m either not ready for or may never truly accept.
Nowadays it seems more important to me to be understanding and respectful. It took a lot of hard lessons and shameful behavior before I learned it, but now I spend time with people of different faiths who are more interested in what we have in common to share with love and kindness, and debate our differences with respect for the base humanity and intelligence that should be given to others. This isn’t to say this right is eternally granted; some people forfeit this privilege at the door since this respect must be mutual in order to work, but even they get a chance to try to convince me something I have been thinking might be wrong. There are those I’ll never agree with, but very few I will actually dislike for it. They always fall into the category of those who teach ignorance and hatred as a course of action, much like the counter-cult ministries seem fond of doing. Who would want to believe in a belief set that features God and/or Jesus as a figure who approves of cruel condemnation for differences that aren’t so big when you stop and look at the big picture? I know I wouldn’t.
It’s sites like this that get my blood boiling: http://objectiveministries.org/kidz/ . Of course, it only boils for a little while before I stop and laugh at the spiteful, poo-flinging ignorance touted by such people. If anyone wants to screech hatred from the top of their lungs or plug their ears and hum loudly when anything that might contradict them pops up, they can do so and I can chuckle to myself and move on. It does make life easier to let go of anger like that, doesn’t it?
Oh, and sorry to comment-spam, but I’d like to add one more point: CHRISTIANS HAVE MADE ME A BETTER PERSON. I have been BETTER and MORE KIND after listening to their loving, understanding, respectful opinions.
ONLY THESE KINDS OF CHRISTIANS HAVE EVER, EVER, EVER COME CLOSE TO MAKING ME CONSIDER ACCEPTING CHRIST AS MY LORD AND SAVIOR. NOT ONE PERSON WHO HAS TOLD ME I WILL BURN IN HELL HAS DONE ANYTHING BUT PUSH ME AWAY. This is simple fact. Only those Christians who demonstrated what I consider to be truly Christ-like behavior have ever made me interested in Christ. That’s all there is to it.
[BJM], if you think you can improve upon public evangelical engagement with Mormonism, you’d be most effective in being a doer and not just a talker. In other words, don’t just complain about it, but provide a living, breathing model of interaction that others can learn from.
Unfortunately, it seems most that complain aren’t being realistic, holistic models of engagement. They often limit themselves to interacting with (and even pandering to) non-mainstream pockets of Mormonism. Or they limit themselves to an abstract notion of “official doctrine” instead of more holistically engaging the breadth of modern Mormonism’s institutional channels of influence (those, by the way, come out of Salt Lake City, not Provo), mainstream Mormon beliefs, and extant oral traditions. Or they strictly insist on a myopic academic model of discourse that is out of touch with common people.
In other words, I would challenge you to be an example of engagement on the internet to common Mormon people in a way that lovingly and intelligently both preaches for the purity of the real gospel and specifically warns against falsehoods that keep people away from the truth. I can assure you that merely preaching against the evangelical counter-cult community is not going to be very edifying without some sort of alternative model to provide.
Grace and peace in Christ, who only justifies those who stop working and start trusting the God who justifies the ungodly by faith apart from works (Romans 4:4-8, contra the JST),
Aaron
Well said Aaron. Any dialogue with mormons must by nature start and stop with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The idea of a “dialogue” with a false belief system is foreign to the Bible.
Aaron: Clearly you know very little about me if you think I am merely a “talker” and not a doer. I spent five years at Brigham Young University surrounded by Latter-day Saints, being a living example of what I believe and getting to share my faith on a daily basis, and it got noticed. It’s counter-cult ministers who think crawling the Internet in search of trophy chat transcripts with inept, ill-prepared Mormons constitutes “witnessing” to them. Pretty laughable to someone who has sat in a classroom full of Mormons and questioned the lectures of scholars from FARMS.
Thanks for urging me to be an example, but I’m extremely confident I’ve been a better example and brought more Latter-day Saints closer to God than 99% of the counter-cult ministers out there. And I think Mormons need to hear that not all of us approve of the behaviors and methods of the counter-cult ministry, so they’re gonna hear it from me.
Laura: I appreciate your feedback as always. You are one of the reasons that I firmly believe an attitude of love and respect will always be a better path than one of fear and condemnation.
Seth: I did not know that Greg and Dr. Millet had already written their book! I have been out of the loop for a while with my daughter’s disability and my mother’s illness. I own How Wide the Divide, I’ll have to check out the others you mentioned. There was a book I read while I was at BYU, it was not a dialogue but it was a book by an LDS guy trying to give a respectful overview of what evangelicals believe. It was called Understanding These Other Christians and it was very respectful and sincere. I would like to see evangelicals write books about Mormons with that sort of attitude.
Not to strain out a gnat, but if using the broad sense of “dialogue” (an interactive communication), I would have to disagree. But I think we’re on the same page. Of course we interactively communicate with non-believers. The idea of “dialogue” becomes problematic for me when it is restricted to dispassionate communication or to mere perspectival descriptions of what “you believe” and what “I believe”. Christian dialogue should ultimately include sincere questions, self-descriptions, and bold assertions that get personal (spoken upon the authority of God’s word). Why? Because when Jesus came, he preached repentance and the kingdom of God.
If our dialog is based on integrity and honesty and evangelistic principles, we should be able to look a dialogue partner in the eyes and say, “I sincerely want to understand you and I sincerely want to convert you.” As soon as dialogical model is stripped of evangelistic passions, it no longer deserves to be promoted as a model of evangelism.
Grace and peace,
Aaron
[BJM],
My original comment is not intended to be an accusation that you, in your personal life, don’t live out the model you wish to promote. I for one think it is rad that you were able to go to BYU and engage Mormons over Christ and the truth.
The point of my original comment (perhaps unclear) is to challenge you to flesh out by example the model you wish to promote in the very online context you critique models you dislike. You’ll make a lot of online Mormon friends by critizing your brothers in counter-cult ministries, but that comes across as cheap pandering if you don’t show us (the same audience that read your blog post) what your idea of evangelistic interaction should actually look like. It’s one thing to merely mock and tear down Christian brothers you disagree with in a public venue, but it’s quite another to supplement that with an example (in the same venue) that edifies and builds up.
Grace and peace,
Aaron
Thank you for clarifying, Aaron. Blogging about how I think evangelicals should approach Mormons is definitely on the agenda. I felt that pointing out some of what we are doing wrong was a good first step, but there’s definitely more to come as my time permits. Take care.
CG, I’m back briefly tonight after a full day of ministry.
The apologetics deal that one observes in the Intermountain West is a mixed bag; and yet CG, dialogue agenda pushed on us in the West sometimes has much to be desired in the way of hearty love, authentic sincerity, courage and freedom to share biblical conviction, and real sacrifice.
To all: Better than blogs, modern books, and conferences, I love to delve back in the ways of how biblical prophets, apostles, elders, deacons, and missionaries through each one of their individual, unique personalities were led by God in approaching others, confronting others, and gossiping the true gospel to others. The biblical guidebook is the ongoing, inexhaustible treasure house of God’s nature and His ways. Remind me of this often.
thinking of heart issues,
et
Very rarely have I encountered an Evangelical in online debate mode who bothered much with telling me why his or her religion was desirable. Most of them devoted the lion’s share of the exchange to telling me why my religion stinks.
Todd Wood would be an exception (he often focuses on what has him excited about his faith on any given day).
Hi [BJM],
I just wanted to say thank you and that I appreciate your courage in sharing what your experiences in an honest way.
I also appreciate you being specific and naming names, for two reasons.
1 is because that is how I found this. I am a participant on the CARM forums, and while in one way I find them to be a very helpful resource, there are some issues with their moderating and administration that have been greatly troubling.
This is the precise reason I went searching the net, for feedback from any others, who may have experienced the same things.
It seems as though some of the people in CARM’s inner circle, are more interested and focused on gossiping and arguing, then they are at actually encouraging others in the name of Christianity.
Their attempts to dominate and control, without any accountability to those that participate on their forums, are what is particularly troubling to me, as I’ve seen NUMEROUS people, just like yourself, have experiences with SUPPOSED Christians, and then leave very discouraged and disheartened.
The other reason I think it’s good to name names, is that it’s precisely these PHONY christian leaders who are worried about protecting “an image”, that SHOULD be called out.
Since when does any Christian have “an image”?
I thought there is NO ONE whom is righteous.
The ONLY one that is righteous is God, and our savior Jesus.
So this guy worried about his image, seems to be someone quite obviously someone who has become “puffed-up”, and lost his focus (if he ever truly had any”.
Galatians 6 tells us quite clearly, that anyone who thinks himself to be something, when he is really nothing, deceives himself.
I’d direct your “friend” to that piece of scripture, while he’s so worried about his “image”.
Anyways, I gotta run, but thanks again.
Hey Mark, thanks for sharing your own experience here. I haven’t given CARM more than a passing glance since this happened, but I’m not surprised to hear that things haven’t changed much.
I’d say more but I gotta run, will say more later. Take care.
So, I spent a little time reading the CARM Mormonism forums since my last post, and yup, the quality of discussion there is about what I remember. Evangelicals answering every reference to Brigham Young and Joseph Smith with “He was a false prophet and a liar!”, dismissing all LDS testimonies out of hand as automatically spiritually bankrupt, ridiculing celestial wives and spirit babies (because you know, it’s impossible to ridicule the rest of Christianity in a similar fashion). The quality of input from the LDS participants that I saw wasn’t a heck of a lot better, but I suspect all of the really capable LDS apologists have long since left out of boredom or been banned.
Anyways, if my story does anything, I hope it shows evangelicals that you can be a strong Christian witness to other sects and faiths while still telling the counter-cult ministry to take a hike. I hope it shows Latter-day Saints that not all of us are interested in dialogue that involves calling your leaders liars ad nauseam.
I think Aaron was right earlier that it’s easy for me to sit back and say what I think other people are doing wrong, and I don’t intend to stop there. I still plan to write about what I think is a better approach to Latter-day Saints. All in time.
Hey, I meant to tell you that some of the responses to you here I found to be pretty obnoxious.
Aaron’s was one of them.
It’s amazing when people don’t like your opinion, they things they come up with.
And as you RIGHTLY said – “how do you know what I’ve done or not been doing?”
But as he moves to lecture you, he totally moves past his own wrongs and issues.
As for CARM, what troubles me about that place is that while it is SUPPOSED to be a Christian forum, it seems more about idle gossip and pointless bickering, and what’s even MORE troubling, is that it seems as though the administrators of the site, seem to not only be caught up in that, but what’s worse is that is seems apparent that they use their administrative powers to further this agenda, and manipulate the outcome of their participation.
So not only is the focus wrong, but the means are corrupt.
I would REALLY appreciate hearing your insights, as a former moderator there.
I’m still not sure what to think, because Matt has provided a lot of really good counsel material on a wide variety of subjects, and at times seems pretty sincere.
But other times he seems quite corrupt.
I’m not sure what to think.
Send me an email, if you don’t wish to share this publicly.
Mark, I’m not sure that there’s much more insight I could give you than what I’ve written in my initial post. There were very few moderators at CARM at the time and I never spoke with any of them but Matt. My moderating stint was short-lived, probably lasting about two months. I mentioned deleting a post there in my journal entry for February 29, 2000, so I was a moderator before then, and my account of being removed from moderation is dated March 29, 2000.
I’m hesitant to condemn him now based on what happened in 2000, I can only tell you what I knew of him then. He came on talking a good game (he’s a much better debater vocally than he is in writing) and seemed very passionate and sincere, and I initially believed he was really concerned about Mormons, but the way he treated Mormons on his forums began to bother me. Back then, capable LDS apologists were regularly responding to his posted arguments on Mormons. His responses to their arguments were poor and he knew it, so he would just delete them or try to act like it was the same ol’ same ol’ and brush it off. Wade Englund was one person who kept responding though, and Matt began grumbling about banning him and eventually did so. When I would disagree with him about deleting a post or banning someone or tried to say that we should encourage the evangelical participants to be more respectful of Mormon beliefs (and I was always as polite as possible about bringing it up), he would get irate with me. I just felt bullied most of the time, and when he brought up Scott’s complaints about the links on my web site, I really felt bullied. Who the hell were these two grown men to be telling an 18-year-old girl what she could and could not be linking to on her personal homepage?? (And please note that Scott did later apologize)
He would also regularly hang out in chat rooms attempting to engage unsuspecting, unprepared Latter-day Saints so he could post a chat transcript on his web site of what Mormons “really” believe. I’m not a big fan of this technique because anyone can find an unprepared bumpkin of any religion in a chat room somewhere and make them look dumb. Heck, Bill Maher just made an entire movie doing that to people (mostly Christians) in person.
I left CARM feeling that Matt’s actions and behavior, both towards me and towards Mormons, belied his claims to genuine concern for them. The Bible says it does not matter how much good work you do or how much you give for God, without love you’re nothing (1 Corinthians 13:3). I never felt love for Mormons there, not behind the scenes and not publicly on the forums, and I see little evidence that things there have changed.
If you want to see the work of an evangelical who (in my opinion) does a superb job interacting with Mormons in an online setting, register at http://www.mormonapologetics.org and look up rhinomelon’s posts. If you’re wondering if CARM is a waste of your time, I’d say it is, and the sooner you leave the happier you’ll be. Hope that helps.
Jack, I”m impressed. You stick to your guns but you’ve got some sense in how to and how not to actually reach out to Mormons. Wish there were more like you…
Thank you Clean Cut. You’ve paid me a great compliment and I appreciate it.
What a great, although tragic story. You and I took different paths but we ended up with the same journey and destination away from counter-cult approaches to new religions like Mormonism. Thanks for sharing with us.
My pleasure, John. Good to hear from you again.
Globbergirl,
I feel the vibes of your heart for these people the LDS Mormons, and I agree, and thank you. Yes, we need more people who can show Christ’s love, and respond to them with some intelligence. I, my self, have lived in SLC Utah for over 13 years. Consequently, over those years, some “Utahans” were Mormon; they were my doctor, my dentist, my boss, my college teachers and some of them my friends, even found respect among some high intellectual Mormons I’ve shared with…, even so however, I never was became a Mormon, but I know all about them, all about their strange teachings and doctrines, history and biblical short comings, and even witnessed to the so-called “jack Mormons” on every “cruise night” as an evangelist with the gospel of Jesus, but this didn’t make me an anti-mormon, and yet I am somewhat against them; I suppose its because of the amount of knowledge that I have read on them. In any case, I believe that the Mormons use the term anti-M to defend themselves, and/or to ward off any man who stands against their religion. I am someone who understands the differences between the Christian religion and the Mormon Lds belief system.
Moreover, I believe that every true Christian should use what ever means possible to reach these people, but with God’s love. For without love, no matter how hard you try, your message can’t be heard. We should teach in such a manner that is without fault in character, to show at least some intellecual demeanor, as to express a degree of study, that informs the public the clear doctrinal information, without undue emotion, so that these people can see outside of the stone box, which has yet to be found, in a most remote hill, in up state NY.
Rp.
Ray, I definitely think there is such a thing as an anti-Mormon. The Wikipedia article on anti-Mormonism is actually pretty good at explaining it, though I don’t agree with the categories in which they group anti-Mormons. I think that skeptical anti-Mormons (those who are atheist/agnostic/deist) belong in a category of their own separate from any types of evangelical anti-Mormons.
That said, there are definitely Mormons with persecution complexes who abuse the term and claim that anyone who has some sort of criticism of the church is an anti-Mormon. That’s not the case. Folks like me certainly have criticisms of the church, but it isn’t our theme or our focus. I’ve specifically avoided doing posts which outright criticize the LDS church for the time being because I don’t want this to be seen as just another blog that criticizes Mormonism.
Jack,
Just wanted to say thanks for posting your story. I told Meredith about my run-in with you and she told me how totally awesome you are. I can see why! (Also, it is thanks to you that I have a few relatives who share my love for Christian rock!)
On another note, I think it is great to know that there are so many people out there who understand that you can totally disagree with someone’s religious views and still recognise that they are good people. As I have so often tried to explain to others, I don’t believe that Mormons (or any group, for that matter) have a monopoly on the “goodness” market.
Alex,
It’s good to meet a relative of Meredith’s.
During Fall Semester 2001, when Mer and I were roommates, she came with me to the Five Iron Frenzy concert in Provo. We had a blast. I remember there was this guy in the crowd who was rather heavyset with a really nasty mohawk who kept mashing against Meredith until she finally shoved him back hard. He turned around and glared at her for a second, and she glared right back, and I seriously thought that guy was going to be leaving the concert on a stretcher… LOL.
It was so great that she came with me though. BYU was a lonely experience at times and it’s hard to get Mormons into Five Iron Frenzy, but Mer came with me and she loved it. She even bought a band t-shirt. I sure do miss her.
I’m glad you enjoyed my story, welcome to the blog and thanks for dropping by.
Well, this blog has been interesting to visit, too bad there were not more WoW posts. RP PvP is obviously the one true way
Bridget,
As a complete non-believer in any of the religious traditions, but an avid seeker for a Higher Being, I want to say that it is nice to see people be honest, like you have done.
Being from out of state (VA), and a so called “atheist”, Utah can be an interesting place. I’ve stayed since it is a great community with good ethical foundations, regardless of what the dominate religion is.
I bore over the tedious altercations I’ve seen displayed down at the LDS Conference Center. In fact, just tonight I was down at the Gateway Mall in downtown Salt Lake City and received many pamphlets from Evangelicals (I assume), which I’m totally cool with. However, as soon as a guy handed me one about Joseph Smith I became very annoyed.
Why is it that people feel they need to slander? Why do they need to go after Joseph Smith if what they have is from God?
Do they think God is not capable enough to touch people’s hearts without having to resort to slander?
Do they really not know much of their own histories? Mormons have strange doctrines and history that’s for sure, but why do evangelicals think they are so much different? Did God not forsake them during the reign of the Holy Catholic Church? Why did it take Martin Luther to bring back the correct understanding in regards to a Pontiff?
Get a life counter-cult ministries. that or just be like the mormon boys and only bother us for two years.
I’d love to hear Aaron or his friends thoughts on that.
[...] Jack Meyers had such a great analogy for it. She, fortunately, understands the difference in being silly and being reasonable (protip: her story with LDS missionaries telling her her baptism was [...]
Thank you for your post and comments. As an LDS convert I can appreciate your point of view, even when it doesn’t necessarily fit with mine
I, too, need to be sure not to group those who sincerely criticize the Church with those who seem to hatefully antagonize.
God Bless!
I just realized that I never commented on this post. I’m a little late.
As far as I’m concerned, this entry is the authority text on CARM. Consider it canonized.
Tony, WalkerW, thanks for stopping by the blog. Glad you enjoyed the post.
Bridget:
Greetings. I’ve seen some of your posts on Mormon Discussions and that is how I found this blog. Seems you get a little heat from both sides of the fence–which may be an indication that at the heart and soul of both sides there is a war going on, however politely it may be waged (or not so).
While I understand your point–I think–that dialogue with LDS (I am an Evangelical too, btw) should rise above condescension and simple accusations of dishonesty among LDS leaders, I tend to agree with Aaron who seems to basically be asking what practical improvements would you suggest?
I think the danger here is the whole concept of bridge-building itself. What is the purpose? Of course, as Christians, we are to love those around us (whether LDS or not) and share the hope we have at every opportunity, but on the other hand, we are never told that we should build bridges to deception in the process. That’s where it gets tricky. The hard truth is that either Mormonism is one of the most insidious deceptions ever pawned on mankind and should therefore be exposed as such, or it is the truth and we should all convert (even Orson Pratt would agree). Unless the Biblical God does not exist, I agree with Pratt (on that point) and see very little room for middle ground. Mormonism itself has defined the ground rules by insisting it is the only true church and its prophets are the only ones with God-given authority.
The truth of the matter is, either God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith or they did not. Either the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be or it is not. Either that–and much more–is true or it isn’t. If it isn’t, then what are the implications?
I don’t know of anyone who advocates attacking the Mormon laity for their sincerely held beliefs. I know that online discussions can easily degenerate into name-calling cat-fights, but that is the nature of the internet. I’ve seen both sides fall into this and am probably guilty of a little myself–though I try not to be.
I produce a weekly radio program that attempts to expose the deception in as loving a manner as possible. We feature the personal testimonies of former Latter-day Saints. You can listen to the program online, if you’d like to, here:
http://outofmormonism.libsyn.com/
I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you might have.
All the best,
Roger
Hey Roger, you’ve asked some good questions. Just so that you know, I will get back to you in a few days.
[...] if you would like to read an “insiders” perspective on the goings-on at CARM, read here and here. Within the context of that discussion I briefly mentioned the CARM discussion forums. [...]
Jack…you are breath of fresh air. I too am involved in a war at present at CARM. Pride won’t allow me to let it go. I pray that God will give me the strength to do so. Maybe this blog entry will help me do so.
Hey, Bridget, thanks for sharing your journey–which I believe was directed by God–into the bridge-builders’s zone. You truly have stepped off the short bus. May God continue to empower you and increase your wisdom and project your ministry.
The blood of Jesus can cover SO MUCH unintentional error if we will only believe in him and follow him. Whether we are a Mormon or an evangelical, his light and joy grow ever brighter in our hearts as we pursue him. The light is small at first, uh?
To Roger:
Have you ever interviewed on your show someone who used to be a non-Mormon Christian and is now a Mormon Christian? I met a Mormon like that once. He told me he was a Christian before he became a Mormon—he described to me his relationship with the Lord—and said that he is still a Christian today as a Mormon.
I appreciate your efforts to be as loving as possible.
Dittos on the breath of fresh air comment. Also, turns out we were at BYU at the same time. I wish I could have known you back then so I could meet you in person.
I got involved in the Interfaith Dialogues led by Robert Millet at BYU a few years ago. This last year, my wife and I hosted 3 dialogues in our home. Greg Johnson would let me know when a group of evangelical students would be coming through town, and I would email a bunch of friends, and we would spend 3 or 4 hours at our house, in little informal circles of 4-6 people.
They are SO fun. My wife and my main goal is to have an atmosphere that is comfortable for even the most shy person to ask those long-held questions that they’ve always been too nervous to ask. I’m very glad we met Greg, and I hope we get to do a lot more in the future.
Anyway, I’m looking to read more of your blog in the future. Feel free to contact me by email.